Spanking?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

So, you approve of hitting children as a way to keep them out of foster care?

Boru

No, I do not.
And I said no such thing, as you are perfectly well-aware of. 

Do you think it's okay to continue to paint me as a child abuser or advocate for child abuse just because you feel I've defied your moral absolute by suggesting that context is important? 
I sure as hell don't. 

Personally, I think your willingness to hurl horrendous and very serious allegations towards people who disagree you is actually pretty fucking despicable.
It pretty much confirms my suspicion that you're essentially tyrannical fuck-shit as a mod.

I tell ya...Give some motherfuckers a title, and they just lose their goddamned minds.


F*ck Boru

1.  It sure read that way.

2.  I don't have a 'moral absolute'.  It's a personal opinion.  If you can't cope with that, it's on you.

3.  LOL, you don't know anything about my activities as a mod. Without going into detail, I've reported and voted against people I get along with and defended some people I don't get along with (for example, I could have reported you for threatening behavior, but I didn't).

So...yeah.

Could you give me your reason(s) why you think it's okay to physically strike children, as opposed to some other methods of discipline?

Boru

[Rev. Rye]

I'm going to leave this here:

https://www.cmaj.ca/content/184/12/1373

TL;DR: dozens of studies have been made on spanking. Not one of them found a real positive to it, but they did find that it led to increased disobedience/aggression/antisocial behavior and an increase in mental health issues (from anxiety to simply not having as much grey matter in their brains) as well as a more strained relationship with the spanker. Basically, everything said parents are trying to avoid.

And on a lighter note, here's a lighter take on the subject, which subtly explains my point, written by James Thurber (complete with his illustration, which, while charming, may not translate well with whatever text-to-speech program BrokenQuill is using). 

Q. I have three Scotch terriers which take things out of closets and down from shelves, etc. My veterinarian advised me to gather together all the wreckage, set them down in the midst of it, and say "ba-ad Scotties!" This, however, merely seems to give them a kind of pleasure. If I spank one, the other two jump me -- playfully, but they jump me.

MRS. O. S. PROCTOR

A. To begin with, I question the advisability of having three Scotch terriers. They are bound to get you down. However, it seems to me that you are needlessly complicating your own problem. The Scotties probably think that you are trying to enter into the spirit of their play. Their inability to comprehend what you are trying to get at will in the end make them melancholy, and you and the dogs will begin to drift farther and farther apart. I'd deal with each terrier, and each object, separately, beginning with the telephone, the disconnection of which must inconvenience you sorely.

Also, I've read this a couple times, and only now did I just notice that Mrs. Proctor didn't mention a disconnected telephone in her letter.

[no one]

[BrokenQuill92]

The good thing is when you have kids is to have a windowless room with walls and floor lined with cushions/mats and big cushion toys, so that kids can run, jump, scream, fall, trip inside as much as they want and won't get hurt and will exhaust their physical exigencies so they won't have any energy left to do bad things.

That just sounds like a cute loony bin

[Athene]

No, I do not.
And I said no such thing, as you are perfectly well-aware of. 

Do you think it's okay to continue to paint me as a child abuser or advocate for child abuse just because you feel I've defied your moral absolute by suggesting that context is important? 
I sure as hell don't. 

Personally, I think your willingness to hurl horrendous and very serious allegations towards people who disagree you is actually pretty fucking despicable.
It pretty much confirms my suspicion that you're essentially tyrannical fuck-shit as a mod.

I tell ya...Give some motherfuckers a title, and they just lose their goddamned minds.


F*ck Boru

1.  It sure read that way.

2.  I don't have a 'moral absolute'.  It's a personal opinion.  If you can't cope with that, it's on you.

3.  LOL, you don't know anything about my activities as a mod. Without going into detail, I've reported and voted against people I get along with and defended some people I don't get along with (for example, I could have reported you for threatening behavior, but I didn't).

So...yeah.

Could you give me your reason(s) why you think it's okay to physically strike children, as opposed to some other methods of discipline?

Boru

1. Sure it reads that way, IF you're blinded by Boru-rage.

2. Actually, you do on this particular matter.

3. You also relentlessly needle and bully certain members from thread to thread whenever the mood strikes you.
   Don't play dumb.

    And you didn't report me for threatening behavior because you know goddamned well I haven't threatened you.
    If you're going to continue to maintain that I did, I going to have to insist that you bring me the receipts.

    Good luck with that.

For the nth time, and as I made clear from my very first post in this thread: I am not a proponent of spanking and do not regard it as an acceptable substitute for non-corporal methods of correction and actual parenting. I simply recognize that some parents see a need to resort to it when reasonable methods have proved to be ineffective and a child is engaging in a dangerous/risky behavior that is decidedly more harmful than a single spanking--And that I am unwilling to label a parent who spanks under such circumstances as a child abuser. They're not. Not in eyes of the law, and not in my own eyes, though I may not like it.

IMO, potentially turning an otherwise normal families' world upside down with separation, case workers, the foster system, criminal prosecution, lawyers, and loss of employment and income, etc. and changing the courses of all their lives based off of nothing other than an a single spanking would be a wholly irrational, senselessly punitive, dick move that utterly fails to take the big picture into account. 
When it comes to taking morally sound action in real life, clinging to black and white thinking and lofty ideals doesn't quite get the job done, Boru. You've got to dig a little deeper and actually make an effort to think shit through. 

You don't care for my position? Fine by me.
I'm honored to meet your disapproval.

[BrokenQuill92]

I think it would help people learn to parent better if they didn't feel it's normal to get violent with children. "Stop crying, or I'll give you something to cry about" isn't a good mentality. It only creates a rift between you, and the other person. Discipline, sure, but don't assault them.

I totally admit having said this a time or two, however I would never under any circumstances actually hit a child. But usually with small children I don’t have any issues it’s around 10 when they get lippy and wear on your last nerve. Especially since when you’re a midget like me and they think towering over you is funny.

---

I'm going to leave this here:

https://www.cmaj.ca/content/184/12/1373

TL;DR: dozens of studies have been made on spanking. Not one of them found a real positive to it, but they did find that it led to increased disobedience/aggression/antisocial behavior and an increase in mental health issues (from anxiety to simply not having as much grey matter in their brains) as well as a more strained relationship with the spanker. Basically, everything said parents are trying to avoid.

And on a lighter note, here's a lighter take on the subject, which subtly explains my point, written by James Thurber (complete with his illustration, which, while charming, may not translate well with whatever text-to-speech program BrokenQuill is using). 

Q. I have three Scotch terriers which take things out of closets and down from shelves, etc. My veterinarian advised me to gather together all the wreckage, set them down in the midst of it, and say "ba-ad Scotties!" This, however, merely seems to give them a kind of pleasure. If I spank one, the other two jump me -- playfully, but they jump me.

MRS. O. S. PROCTOR

A. To begin with, I question the advisability of having three Scotch terriers. They are bound to get you down. However, it seems to me that you are needlessly complicating your own problem. The Scotties probably think that you are trying to enter into the spirit of their play. Their inability to comprehend what you are trying to get at will in the end make them melancholy, and you and the dogs will begin to drift farther and farther apart. I'd deal with each terrier, and each object, separately, beginning with the telephone, the disconnection of which must inconvenience you sorely.

Also, I've read this a couple times, and only now did I just notice that Mrs. Proctor didn't mention a disconnected telephone in her letter.

No I can’t get voice over to tell me the picture

---

All spanking children did was give them a fetish as adults.

😊maybe

---

I got beat as a kid. I sure as hell wan't bringing that onto my kids. Taking away favorite playthings worked wonders.

You shot their dog?

Wait what?!

[Rev. Rye]

Forgive me if I’m pointing out the obvious here, but imma try and play mediator.

I think we’re witnessing a culture clash here: Boru is Irish, and in Ireland , all corporal punishment is illegal. So, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so strongly against it.

By contrast, Athena is black, specifically African-American, and while corporal punishment by African-American parents is a depressingly complicated subject (rooted in, among other things, layers of internalized oppression) that I, as a honky, am probably not equipped to talk about), but in spite of my racial handicap, it makes sense to me to hypothesize that, in the behavioral sink that is America, with that cultural baggage in mind, she’s probably seen enough use of spanking as a sort of Godzilla Threshold that it’s become normal to her. So it also makes sense to me why she would think that.

You can argue about which perspective is more valid till the cows come home (and I personally lean more towards Boru’s perspective, as I said earlier), but I don’t think this discussion is going to get anywhere until we try and think about why you hold those beliefs.

---

No I can’t get voice over to tell me the picture

It’s just a sketch of household objects (including an umbrella, pipe, that phantom telephone that the doctor mentioned in his reply, but the writer didn’t include in the original letter) and three confused Scottish Terriers standing among the mess they made.

[BrokenQuill92]

Forgive me if I’m pointing out the obvious here, but imma try and play mediator.

I think we’re witnessing a culture clash here: Boru is Irish, and in Ireland , all corporal punishment is illegal. So, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so strongly against it.

By contrast, Athena is black, specifically African-American, and while corporal punishment by African-American parents is a depressingly complicated subject (rooted in, among other things, layers of internalized oppression) that I, as a honky, am probably not equipped to talk about), but in spite of my racial handicap, it makes sense to me to hypothesize that, in the behavioral sink that is America, with that cultural baggage in mind, she’s probably seen enough use of spanking as a sort of Godzilla Threshold that it’s become normal. So it also makes sense to me why she would think that.

You can argue about which perspective is more valid till the cows come home (and I personally lean more towards Boru’s perspective, as I said earlier), but I don’t think this discussion is going to get anywhere until we try and think about why you hold those beliefs.

---

No I can’t get voice over to tell me the picture

It’s just a sketch of household objects (including an umbrella, pipe, that phantom telephone that the doctor mentioned in his reply, but the writer didn’t include in the original letter) and three confused Scottish Terriers standing among the mess they made.

I usually just put Liz in her bag and hang it from a hook when I need a break from her. She likes her bag and it calms her down while I clean whatever mess she’s made

[Divinity]

Spanking is a poor deterrent. Studies show that it's ineffective long-term. For one thing, it teaches kids NOT to get caught. So instead of "Don't do X" they learn "Don't do X while mommy's looking." It can also build resentment. I'd know, cause I resented my father every time he spanked me. I almost ALWAYS got revenge on him (often in ways he wouldn't even realize). I'd pour his beers out in the sink, hide his keys, take money from his wallet. Dumbass never realized it most of the time.

I raised SIX kids (my 5 + my sister). Never spanked one of them. My kids knew my rules, and they knew not to break them. This went well into their teenage years. Helped that I was a fairly lenient parent, I'm sure. Probably a little too lenient when it came to some things. I was one of those mom's who the kids knew to say "Yes, ma'am" to because I didn't take no for an answer. I was authoritative, but never authoritarian.

And before people say "Oh, I grew up spanked and I never had any problems" I say Bullshit. Cause you're defending an ineffective deterrent which includes violence against a child. Maybe you're not super fucked up. Doesn't mean you aren't fucked up at all. (We're all a little fucked up if I'm being honest). Spanking increases the likelihood of mental illness, aggressive behaviors (fuck, that describes me right there. I'm super fucking aggressive) and a fucking plethora of other negative effects. (Anti-social behavior, too).

Even if spanking worked, it wouldn't exactly justify it. I mean if you chop off your kid's finger every time he does something bad, and then NEVER does that behavior ever again, it wouldn't justify chopping off his fingers. "The Ends don't justify the means". But that it doesn't work makes it all the worse. It'd be like chopping off your kid's finger when he hit his sister, then he hits his sister again, so you chop off another finger, and then he STILL hits his sister and he ends up fingerless and you have to move on to toes.

Also, if your children are misbehaving SO badly, there's a decent chance it's the one of the parents faults. Sure, there are cases where the kid has mental issues that simply are beyond the parents' control. That's why I say "Decent chance". Bad parenting leads to kids misbehaving most of the time. And yeah, it's definitely hard to raise kids. I didn't have any idea what the fuck I was doing -- had kids way too young, and way too many. There's no instruction booklet that comes with them. Figuring out how to parent is a lot like figuring out how to put an IKEA Table together. Nobody really understands it, not even people who've allegedly written books about it. But some people try a little harder than others, and wind up with a wobbly chair or table, while others leave most of the parts in the box and sit and do nothing, and others still end up with a one-legged chair duct-taped to the floor with most of the pieces still in the box.

[Rev. Rye]

And here’s a scene from Black Mass where Whitey Bulger illustrates the real lesson kids are likely to learn from physical punishment, just done more explicitly than most parents would say it.





This is happening subconsciously in the mind of many spanked kids, and Whitey Bulger is their inner monologue.