[Serious] Time to embrace Islam!

[Deesse23]

I prefer news to theologian "scholars".
The point is that the majority of muslims believe death is the correct punishment for apostasy, according to the Quran. A fact you conveniently deny.

First of all, your exact claim was : Islam instructs to kill atheists. Now you backpedal to apostasy, great honesty.

Wrong.
When i entered the conversation, this was my first response to you

Second, punishment for apostasy is not in the Qur'an, but in a hadith. This already shows how much news taught you about the religion.

Dont tell me, tell all those muslims who think you are wrong. Do you have problems with reading comprehension, or are you just flat out ignoring what other people are writing?

Apostasy isn't simply changing belief, it means leaving the Muslim community after joining it...

Thank you, Captain Obvious, i already knew, as i said in my first post. Do you have problems with reading comprehension, or are you just flat out ignoring what other people are writing?

...with the political intent of spreading disorder,

Can you read minds, or how do you know that apostates do want to spread disorder? Or are you just making shit up, as per usual.

You think scholars know better what the majority of muslims believe than statistics and polls? Oh well...

Yeah, that what being a scholar means: being better than the majority.

Wow, the stupid hurts. I was not asking about the beliefs being correct, but about how many people have a belief, twice.
Do you have problems with reading comprehension, or are you just flat out ignoring what other people are writing?
By the way: How does the scholar know he is *better* than the majority and his interpretation of holy book is right? ...a book based on which your people are killing each other over the course of 1500 years now, because they disagree.
I am not impressed at all by religious *scholars*. Its like being the *best wanker*, while in reality its all wanking, with the same results.

...and who gave them their certificate of being *correct*? Other scholars? And those got theirs from...?

The same way you listen(ed) to your professors with PhDs while shutting up without asking them this retarded question.

Oh , puh-leaze. Puh-leaze dont tell me you are that ignorant! My professors always were able to demonstrate that what they say is correct. They also encouraged me to always question what they say, to not accept their authority on thei rtitle alone. How about your religious scholars?

Weird, he saz the same about you. So who is correct and why? A question both of you cant answer.

You can say who is right by him dodging my question.

Weird, both of you have the same non-answer. Like both variants of your religion are the same bullshit.

Which scholars? Those who agree with you or those who agree with Atlass? Those who advocate killing apostates or those who dont?
No thanks, i prefer to think for myself.

Atlas doesn't believe in scholars, just like you.

Good for him, he may think for himself (too). Even if its bullshit mostly (as with slavery and islam).

He thinks the Qur'an is self-explanatory, when the Qur'an itself refers to exterior sources of inquiry[Muhammad's sayings].

So, god writes a book that he wants humans to explain, got it. = Bullshit

---

That's no fun for me either. I came to the (sad) conclusion that you may not be exactly the kind of people to take effort seriously, everybody's mind here seems to be so strangely made up against any possible religious case. We only see short, seemingly clever, but ultimately lazy and empty replies.

Countless (serious) replies of mine here have been blatantly ignored, I don't see any reason to 'play' a bit longer when effort becomes one sided.

Lazy? You have no evidence for your god. Have you provided a well-evidenced and soundly reasoned argument for your positive claim that a god exists? Did I miss that somewhere?

His own standard arguments and lazy tactics have no traction here. Now he is butthurt and takes his ball and leaves the playground. Not the first one, not the last one.
Pleas enote as well: He has the biggest arguments in here with a fellow muslim , which is hardly the fault of the forum or atheists within the forum.

[R00tKiT]

Dont tell me, tell all those muslims who think you are wrong. Do you have problems with reading comprehension, or are you just flat out ignoring what other people are writing?

What muslims are you talking about pal? Do you think you can just spread flat lies about the religion and get away with it with a "dont tell me tell muslims" ? Really?
You said explicitly :

I prefer news to theologian "scholars".
The point is that the majority of muslims believe death is the correct punishment for apostasy, according to the Quran. A fact you conveniently deny.

Do you see the lie wide and big ? Do I need to zoom more ?
Apostasy is nowhere in the Qur'an and you think the majority of Muslims believe that? Bring the verse then now or consider yourself just as ignorant as the 'majority of muslims' you're referring to.

Thank you, Captain Obvious, i already knew, as i said in my first post. Do you have problems with reading comprehension, or are you just flat out ignoring what other people are writing?

If you already knew, don't ask?

Can you read minds, or how do you know that apostates do want to spread disorder? Or are you just making shit up, as per usual.

We know that by usually waiting for them to spread disorder, the real treasonous harmful kind of disorder. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Wow, the stupid hurts. I was not asking about the beliefs being correct, but about how many people have a belief, twice.
Do you have problems with reading comprehension, or are you just flat out ignoring what other people are writing?
By the way: How does the scholar know he is *better* than the majority and his interpretation of holy book is right? ...a book based on which your people are killing each other over the course of 1500 years now, because they disagree.
I am not impressed at all by religious *scholars*. Its like being the *best wanker*, while in reality its all wanking, with the same results.

It's not their job to impress you, if you don't want to read established consensus about the meaning of the Qur'anic verses, how Islamic law is enforced, how Islamic jurisprudence helps understanding what you usually claim to be mistakes, you're free to not to, just don't spread lies.

Oh , puh-leaze. Puh-leaze dont tell me you are that ignorant! My professors always were able to demonstrate that what they say is correct. They also encouraged me to always question what they say, to not accept their authority on thei rtitle alone. How about your religious scholars?

They do that too, they demonstrate that their understanding of holy texts is accurate by referring to systematic rules of Arabic rhetoric and grammar. In particular, they don't base their understandings in something they heard in the news.

[LadyForCamus]

@Klorophyll

What’s your BEST argument for god? Go.

[The Architect Of Fate]

What muslims are you talking about pal? Do you think you can just spread flat lies about the religion and get away with it with a "dont tell me tell muslims" ? Really?
You said explicitly :

I prefer news to theologian "scholars".
The point is that the majority of muslims believe death is the correct punishment for apostasy, according to the Quran. A fact you conveniently deny.

Do you see the lie wide and big ? Do I need to zoom more ?
Apostasy is nowhere in the Qur'an and you think the majority of Muslims believe that? Bring the verse then now or consider yourself just as ignorant as the 'majority of muslims' you're referring to

Too bad the verses don't matter and his original comment stands .Hell even he quote you try so had to empathize nowhere does he says it's in there only that a majority says it's in there .Go educated you fellow Muslims though i don't imagine you will get a positive response . 

If you already knew, don't ask?

How about no 

We know that by usually waiting for them to spread disorder, the real treasonous harmful kind of disorder. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Again go tell our fellow Muslims this mr super schalor

It's not their job to impress you, if you don't want to read established consensus about the meaning of the Qur'anic verses, how Islamic law is enforced, how Islamic jurisprudence helps understanding what you usually claim to be mistakes, you're free to not to, just don't spread lies.

Good because they have not .Nor have they done a remotely good job enforcing laws .

 They do that too, they demonstrate that their understanding of holy texts is accurate by referring to systematic rules of Arabic rhetoric and grammar. In particular, they don't base their understandings in something they heard in the news.

So worthless nonsense

[no one]

LFC:
What’s your BEST argument for god? Go.

A magic book, hubris, smugness, and vanity. Throw in a few morsels of ignorance and insecurity. And you've got yourself the perfect recipe* for an extraordinarily human-like almighty designer.  













*This recipe is not exclusive to any one wish-granting magic sky daddy in particular.

[brewer]

I understand that you and Islam are not on the same page. But resorting to such cheap websites that don't even have respect for the literacy of copying tell me a lot about the motives of the site builders.

But really ? bewer, nothing I despise in this life more than not respecting the source. What you called "ammunition" is obsolete and toxic ammunition that caused me radiation poisoning.

You seem to choose how to translate and interpret, I get to choose also. Suck it up.

[Paleophyte]

Hardly empty. The historical record is quite clear about who Muhammed did when and what age she was. Funny how God AllMighty can deliver His Message but can never seem to remember to tell his Prophets not to have sex with children.

Go and read about anachronism and skip the stereotyped nonsense pal, you don't know what you're talking about.

I know that you can't use moral relativism to excuse the misdeeds of your holy man with one hand while peddling moral absolutism with the other. Either sex with children is wrong now. then, and always or it isn't. Neither your god nor your prophet could manage to get that very basic precept right, so anachronism is precisely what your religion is.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Go and read about anachronism and skip the stereotyped nonsense pal, you don't know what you're talking about.

I know that you can't use moral relativism to excuse the misdeeds of your holy man with one hand while peddling moral absolutism with the other. Either sex with children is wrong now. then, and always or it isn't. Neither your god nor your prophet could manage to get that very basic precept right, so anachronism is precisely what your religion is.

Apparently  god  at some point decided relations with extremely young girls was cool

[Deesse23]

Do you see the lie wide and big ? Do I need to zoom more ?
Apostasy is nowhere in the Qur'an and you think the majority of Muslims believe that? Bring the verse then now or consider yourself just as ignorant as the 'majority of muslims' you're referring to.

Dude, there are entire muslim countries where apostasy is punished (often with death)
Some of the most renowed islamic scholars and institutions have (just lately!) confirmed that apostasy = death
I wont bother to look it all up in detail, because you will flat out deny it, no matter what. That much is what we have learned about your character in here already. Once a person has given up rational thought decided that religion is #1 and everything else #2, at best, then religion can take over and make one completely abandon the ability to be reasoned with, up to the poin tof giving up your humanity. You have reached the point by denying that islam made and makes people kill others just for what they think (= not believing). You are welcome to waste your entire lifetime with this horrible mess, bu tdont expect me to waste more than whats necessary in here.
You want meaningful conversation? good then qualify for it, by getting back some of your human decency that you left at the altar of worshipping an imaginary morla monster god.

Its not your fault to be born ignorant, but to die ignornt.

Can you read minds, or how do you know that apostates do want to spread disorder? Or are you just making shit up, as per usual.

We know that by usually waiting for them to spread disorder, the real treasonous harmful kind of disorder. Look it up if you don't believe me.

What kind of treasonous, harmful disorder? Making others apostates as well? Whats the fair punishment for this *treason* in your opinion?
And by the way. Look above, where you denied that (a majority of) muslims believe in punishment for apostates, and now you say "We know that by usually waiting for them to spread disorder,..". You seem indeed to be concerned about apostasy, arent you? So much that you accuse apostates across the board with treason, and we all know treason must be punished, right?

First you deny that apostates be punished, and in the next sentence you are thumping your chest about how you catch them being treasonous apostates.

It's not their (Deesse23: scholars) job to impress you,

It fucking is. If a scholar wants me to believe in his interpretations of the Quran, to believe in Allah at all, then he better be fucking impressive with his credentials and methodolgies to figure out the correct interpretation of Quran (unlike those filthy heretic other muslims like Atlass, you know), i can tell you that.
What about you? You believe any certified-by-clusterfuck-scholar, whatever he says?

if you don't want to read established consensus about the meaning of the Qur'anic verses, how Islamic law is enforced, how Islamic jurisprudence helps understanding what you usually claim to be mistakes, you're free to not to, just don't spread lies.

Correct i am not interested in the consensus of self proclaimed experts about a fairy tale they take for real. I am interested in people who do actually care what is true, what they can demonstrate to be true and the methods how to demonstrate it to be true.

Oh , puh-leaze. Puh-leaze dont tell me you are that ignorant! My professors always were able to demonstrate that what they say is correct. They also encouraged me to always question what they say, to not accept their authority on thei rtitle alone. How about your religious scholars?

They do that too, they demonstrate that their understanding of holy texts is accurate by referring to systematic rules of Arabic rhetoric and grammar. In particular, they don't base their understandings in something they heard in the news.

If your schholars can demonstrate that their interpretation is correct, why are there scholars with opposing views? Whats the standard to decide which scholar is correct? Sure scholars dont base their understandings of things in news, they base it on a 1500 year old book written by ignorant, savage warlords. As for the scholars´abilities: Rules of grammar seems to be a bit thin, concerning whats at the stake: belief in a creator of everthing, who wants to you pray....properly! Or, maybe, just maybe, i underestimated my grammar teacher in primary school.

Why do news bother you so much? Because they would make you question your established belief? Yeah, doubt, based on new information is a grave danger to an deep enraved wishful thinking in fairy tales, isnt it?

[R00tKiT]

@Klorophyll

What’s your BEST argument for god? Go.

Scripture and the prophet's life. The Qur'an couldn't, can't and will never be matched (I explained this point in previous replies) and if all what the authentic hadiths report about Muhammad's life are to be trusted, it's almost insane to say he was a fake. His companions reported everything about him, it was extremely easy for them to spot anything that could question his prophecy.

This argument doesn't invoke one bit of philosophy at all, it's accessible to anyone who can read objective scholarly assessment of how good is the original text, and who can read without bias the biography of the prophet.

Go and read about anachronism and skip the stereotyped nonsense pal, you don't know what you're talking about.

I know that you can't use moral relativism to excuse the misdeeds of your holy man with one hand while peddling moral absolutism with the other. Either sex with children is wrong now. then, and always or it isn't. Neither your god nor your prophet could manage to get that very basic precept right, so anachronism is precisely what your religion is.

You missed the interesting part : Aisha wasn't a child.

Dude, there are entire muslim countries where apostasy is punished (often with death)
Some of the most renowed islamic scholars and institutions have (just lately!) confirmed that apostasy = death
I wont bother to look it all up in detail, because you will flat out deny it, no matter what. That much is what we have learned about your character in here already. Once a person has given up rational thought decided that religion is #1 and everything else #2, at best, then religion can take over and make one completely abandon the ability to be reasoned with, up to the poin tof giving up your humanity. You have reached the point by denying that islam made and makes people kill others just for what they think (= not believing). You are welcome to waste your entire lifetime with this horrible mess, bu tdont expect me to waste more than whats necessary in here.
You want meaningful conversation? good then qualify for it, by getting back some of your human decency that you left at the altar of worshipping an imaginary morla monster god.

Where the fuck did I deny apostasy man? I was the one who brought it into the discussion you know, when you mentioned killing atheists arbitrarily without any clarification in your memorable first post. I denied the fact that apostasy is mentioned in the Qur'an. Sounds like I'm not the one with huge understanding issues.

What kind of treasonous, harmful disorder? Making others apostates as well? Whats the fair punishment for this *treason* in your opinion?
And by the way. Look above, where you denied that (a majority of) muslims believe in punishment for apostates, and now you say "We know that by usually waiting for them to spread disorder,..". You seem indeed to be concerned about apostasy, arent you? So much that you accuse apostates across the board with treason, and we all know treason must be punished, right?

First you deny that apostates be punished, and in the next sentence you are thumping your chest about how you catch them being treasonous apostates.

Again, I deny the existence of a verse who mentions apostasy. I know it's enforced and I know it's there in the Islamic jurisprudence based on an authentic hadith.
And if it is established by a court of Islamic law that it is actual treason (which is extremely complicated to establish and requires incontrovertible proof already) then yes, the punishment is death.

It fucking is. If a scholar wants me to believe in his interpretations of the Quran, to believe in Allah at all, then he better be fucking impressive with his credentials and methodolgies to figure out the correct interpretation of Quran (unlike those filthy heretic other muslims like Atlass, you know), i can tell you that.
What about you? You believe any certified-by-clusterfuck-scholar, whatever he says?

It's hard to discuss with you in this point if you did absolutely no homework looking up the rudimentary methodologies of dealing with holy texts. There are universities and schools and curriculums who teach all of that you know. And if you mean by 'impressive' holding fancy credentials in a graduation ceremony, the yes they are impressive.
And once you are able to deal with the verses with very basic but correct methodology, it's fairly possible to understand what they say better than the majority of Muslims.

Correct i am not interested in the consensus of self proclaimed experts about a fairy tale they take for real. I am interested in people who do actually care what is true, what they can demonstrate to be true and the methods how to demonstrate it to be true.

If you are interested about what's true, why did you bring up killing? This is a serious matter you know, and it's dealt with extensively in scholarly literature, and hint: killing nonbelievers (which is miles away different from the status of an apostate) is unexistent. It's not like we're blindly following some random Imam born in Tora Bora instructing us to strike the White House. We're expecting reasonable non Muslims to grow up and see the stereotypes exactly as they are: stereotypes, nothing more.
Just for the sake of giving an example, let's apply some of the extremely basic Islamic jurisprudence principles to what you see in the media : Suicide bombing is absolutely forbidden in Islam , under any circumstance, even in wartime, even if you are completely authorised to do so from the highest ranking officer in the chain of command during the most righteous just defensive war. Suicide bombing is flat suicide (which is a gravely immoral sin in Islam, as my cousin in kindergarten knows).

Consequence : al-Qaeda, ISIS, Ansar al-Shari'ah, Boko Haram and any other Islamist insurgent group that rationalises his crimes by religious claims understand less about Islam than my little cousin. All we need to come to this conclusion is not to skip kindergarten, no scholars and fancy credentials involved.

If your schholars can demonstrate that their interpretation is correct, why are there scholars with opposing views? Whats the standard to decide which scholar is correct? Sure scholars dont base their understandings of things in news, they base it on a 1500 year old book written by ignorant, savage warlords. As for the scholars´abilities: Rules of grammar seems to be a bit thin, concerning whats at the stake: belief in a creator of everthing, who wants to you pray....properly! Or, maybe, just maybe, i underestimated my grammar teacher in primary school.

Why do news bother you so much? Because they would make you question your established belief? Yeah, doubt, based on new information is a grave danger to an deep enraved wishful thinking in fairy tales, isnt it?

Scholars have no opposing views when it comes to killing a nonbeliver [Hint: it's murder], to whether Aisha was a child when the marriage when consummated [Hint : she wasn't]. They don't discuss much all the standard erroneous claims you see here in the forums.