[Quranic Reflection]: The tolerance the Quran gave non-believers

[WinterHold]

No, Klorophyll. For the 1,000th time between you, Atlas, and Mystic: you cannot use details or facts about the book, or the contents of the book to prove the contents of the book are true. That is a logical fallacy. You need external, corroborating evidence.

If you had such evidence you would have presented it in your very first post on this forum, but you didn’t, so it’s obvious you have no such evidence. You have a book of supernatural claims, and nothing else. Try again.

But Mystic is Klorophyll are practicing organized cyber bullying in an obvious matter.


I wonder why aren't the member banned until now, even though he displayed very extremist tendancies here and I should remind:



https://atheistforums.org/thread-60077-p...pid1947915

Klorophyll Wrote:


Again, I deny the existence of a verse who mentions apostasy. I know it's enforced and I know it's there in the Islamic jurisprudence based on an authentic hadith.
And if it is established by a court of Islamic law that it is actual treason (which is extremely complicated to establish and requires incontrovertible proof already) then yes, the punishment is death.

This is daunting. But that is what cyber bullying is all about

[Deesse23]

if you continue to refute and invalidate my ill-conceived fantasy with your logic and reasoning, I will be forced to reach deeper into my bag of preposterous absurdities to fortify my aforementioned preposterous absurdities!

That the universe has a beginning is an absurdity to you? Shouldn't the fact that some physical constants a tuned to the fucking 122th zero raise a slight concern that you're missing out on something?

...says the puddle of water for the upteenth time.
Oh, and the universe didnt have a beginning.

---

Really? Planck (who contributed to QM I think) thought an intelligent Mind was behind the forces orchestrating the atom.

Planck also once rejected Boltzmanns explanation of entropy. Yet he lived long enough to realize this mistake.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

That the universe has a beginning is an absurdity to you? Shouldn't the fact that some physical constants a tuned to the fucking 122th zero raise a slight concern that you're missing out on something?

Hello Klorophyll!

So, starting with the second premise first.

Physicists don't actually assert that the atoms, quarks, gluons etc are "Precisely tuned".

They are saying that the fundamental bits are like they are 'Just because'.

They keep building bigger and better atom smashers because they want to work out the 'Why' fundamental particles are as/what they are.

In fact, there's an idea that the 'Rest mass' of say electrons actually might just suddenly change/drop one day.

There by setting off a cascade chain of events that literally, at the speed of ligh and perhapse even faster, 'Over-write' our reality (Erasing it) as the new 'Rest state' instantly becomes the normal.

As for "The beginning of everything" ?

Again physicists aren't quite saying that.

What they are saying is that 'There's a period waaaay back in time when everything was like 'X'.

.As in such a high energy state that litteraly NOTHING in our current reality matches that much 'Energy'.

There are no stars big or small enough to generate 5he mind bending physics such a state was.

Even the reality distorting/destroying physics of black holes (Which again we're guessing and poking at) are/is just an approximation of such energy states.

Things were so weirdly different that time, space, reality as we know/understand/model just doesn't work.

So? The physicists keep thinking, testing and working things out. The better to understand such things.

Cheers.

[R00tKiT]

But Mystic is Klorophyll are practicing organized cyber bullying in an obvious matter.

Look kid, didn't Islam teach you not to lie? Because I am not the only one anymore who thinks you are Mystic (a duplicate profile) :

I already said to the moderators it's Atlas duplicate and he's talking to himself, but apparently nobody wants to believe me.

I think you may be correct.  Hope that helps you feel better.

If MysticKnight was coming back I think he would be full on MysticKnight.

https://atheistforums.org/thread-60123-page-7.html

Klorophyll Wrote:


Again, I deny the existence of a verse who mentions apostasy. I know it's enforced and I know it's there in the Islamic jurisprudence based on an authentic hadith.
And if it is established by a court of Islamic law that it is actual treason (which is extremely complicated to establish and requires incontrovertible proof already) then yes, the punishment is death.

This is daunting. But that is what cyber bullying is all about

Aww, that's touching. Grow up kid  

---

If you had such evidence you would have presented it in your very first post on this forum, but you didn’t, so it’s obvious you have no such evidence. You have a book of supernatural claims, and nothing else. Try again.

What kind of evidence are you looking for exactly? I said repeatedly expert judgment is the only possible way for people who don't speak Arabic to understand why the Qur'an is unique.

And you didn't ask here to prove the truth, you asked me to establish that it is miraculous. Miraculous isn't quivalent to true, especially to someone who doesn't think God exists.

I am afraid you are making a category mistake when asking about evidence for a book that assumes God exists.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Your Holey Book isn't special. Get over yourself.

[R00tKiT]

At work.

That the universe has a beginning is an absurdity to you? Shouldn't the fact that some physical constants a tuned to the fucking 122th zero raise a slight concern that you're missing out on something?

Hello Klorophyll!

So, starting with the second premise first.

Physicists don't actually assert that the atoms, quarks, gluons etc are "Precisely tuned".

They are saying that the fundamental bits are like they are 'Just because'.

They keep building bigger and better atom smashers because they want to work out the 'Why' fundamental particles are as/what they are.

In fact, there's an idea that the 'Rest mass' of say electrons actually might just suddenly change/drop one day.  

There by setting off a cascade chain of events that literally, at the speed of ligh and perhapse even faster, 'Over-write' our reality (Erasing it) as the new 'Rest state' instantly becomes the normal.

As for "The beginning of everything" ?

Again physicists aren't quite saying that.

What they are saying is that 'There's a period waaaay back in time when everything was like 'X'.

.As in such a high energy state that litteraly NOTHING in our current reality matches that much 'Energy'.

There are no stars big or small enough to generate 5he mind bending physics such a state was.

Even the reality distorting/destroying physics of  black holes (Which again we're guessing and poking at) are/is just an approximation of such energy states.

Things were so weirdly different that time, space, reality as we know/understand/model just doesn't work.

So? The physicists keep thinking, testing and working things out. The better to understand such things.

Cheers.

It'a little bit more than that, physical constants are the way they are to alllow life to happen. That's way we think there was a plan for us, the tiniest change means a lifeless and completely different universe. Of course one can just say life just happened and here we are talking about it, but then it becomes impossible to change your mind if you say the same thing no matter how compelling is the evidence for theism

[Peebothuhlu]

It'a little bit more than that, physical constants are the way they are to alllow life to happen. That's way we think there was a plan for us, the tiniest change means a lifeless and completely different universe. Of course one can just say life just happened and here we are talking about it, but then it becomes impossible to change your mind if you say the same thing no matter how compelling is the evidence for theism

 Uhm.... 'No' ?

Life exists because chemsitry does what it does.

Chemstry does what it does because of the properties of atoms.

The state of atoms is, basically, 'What is'.

Hence physicists constantly trying to figure out what is going on with atoms.

Hence my comment about the possiblity of the rest state of electrons changing and re-writing all of reality as we currently know it into something... that isn't.

Our current sample size for 'Life' is exactly '1'.

That myriad types of organic material is being found all over our solar system... Well... it'll be interesting to get out to Europa and see what's there, hey?



Not at work.

[R00tKiT]

Uhm.... 'No' ?

Life exists because chemsitry does what it does.

Chemstry does what it does because of the properties of atoms.

The state of atoms is, basically, 'What is'.

Hence physicists constantly trying to figure out what is going on with atoms.

Hence my comment about the possiblity of the rest state of electrons changing and re-writing all of reality as we currently know it into something... that isn't.

Our current sample size for 'Life' is exactly '1'.

That myriad types of organic material is being found all over our solar system... Well... it'll be interesting to get out to Europa and see what's there, hey?



Not at work.

So basically, everything does what it does because 'it is'. What you're saying is a tautology. Nobody denies physics figures out how things work, but if they seem to work for specific purpose, an ontological explanation is warranted.

Let me restate my answer this way : if a marksman successfully shoots down a hummingbird from a very long range, here is what physicists would say : the bullet went straight to the bird because the trajectory of the bullet is 'just is', the bullet came from the rifle in the right moment because the rifle just happens to be there at this moment.

Now all what the physcists are saying is true of course, but the existence of a purpose [killing the bird] warrants an intelligent agent with the purpose in mind. That's what detectives do in a daily basis, they find evidence of purposeful killing, therefore a killer. And science increasingly reveals to us that's it's actually safe to infer that to the whole universe, because again, the universe seemed to have our existence in mind.

[Peebothuhlu]

So basically, everything does what it does because 'it is'. What you're saying is a tautology. Nobody denies physics figures out how things work, but if they seem to work for specific purpose, an ontological explanation is warranted.

Let me restate my answer this way : if a marksman successfully shoots down a hummingbird from a very long range, here is what physicists would say : the bullet went straight to the bird because the trajectory of the bullet is 'just is', the bullet came from the rifle in the right moment because the rifle just happens to be there at this moment.

Now all what the physcists are saying is true of course, but the existence of a purpose [killing the bird] warrants an intelligent agent with the purpose in mind. That's what detectives do in a daily basis, they find evidence of purposeful killing, therefore a killer. And science increasingly reveals to us that's it's actually safe to infer that to the whole universe, because again, the universe seemed to have our existence in mind.

So... yes "Everything does what it does 'because'..." and no, that's not quite a tautology. It's the limit of our understanding of why things are as they are.

Why do atoms do what they do? Who knows? It may simply just be a 'Brute fact' of reality about what atoms 'Do' and that's that.

Or... as physicists keep searching for and learning about, there may actually be more turtles leading ever downwards.

Actually... your analogy doesn't quite work for me.

You see... you're mixing up 'Intent' with applied physics.

People use their limited understanding of physics to harness the properties of the reality around us. Be it the 'mechanical' energy of stressed wood. The 'chemical' energy or mixtures of sulphur, carbon and potasium nitrate etc.

So, just because we put our understanding to good use doesn't mean, say, a volcano puts its pyroclastic flow towards the purpose of killing all the wild life on the vocanoe's slopes when it erupts.

As for reality being 'For us'? What? I don't see many people living happilly, nekkid, on the Moon... Or pretty much any where else in our solar system... Let alone the univers around us.

As for the univers having us in mind?

Yeah, I'm sure there's an asteroid thinking really hard about its imminent impact with Earth... Or the Sun throwing off a metric ton of energetic material to interact with us hence possibly cause skin cancer at the least or wiping out electronic civilization as we know it at the worst.

I long ago stopped tryingot anthropomorphise the reality around me.

I now understand my cat is just a small, furry predator human's have only partially shaped into something that doesn't (Most of the time) want to eat us in our sleep.

Cheers.



Not at work.

[R00tKiT]

So... yes "Everything does what it does 'because'..." and no, that's not quite a tautology. It's the limit of our understanding of why things are as they are.

Of course, and what we understand so far about the universe and the extreme unlikeliness of our existence should warrant an explanation.
Physics is not all there is. Back to my analogy : the existence of marksman who just killed a bird is then - according to you - unknowable from the viewpoint of a physicist if he doesn't witness him shooting. The investigator finds out the bullet - already a sophisticated element in its own right - punctured vital organs of the bird, the trajectory seemed to be very very precise and tuned. Can the investigator then say : that's all I can know, there is a bullet, a dead bird with a punctured head, and that's it? The whole scene in front of the investigator absolutely warrants an explanation, even if it were not true or not provable formally, it's still the only reasonable thing to do.

As for reality being 'For us'? What? I don't see many people living happilly, nekkid, on the Moon... Or pretty much any where else in our solar system... Let alone the univers around us.

People don't live happily for many down to earth reasons and not just because the universe was unfair to them. It's not clever to blame the laws of physics for the tragedies happening in our lives. We would complain even more if they weren't there. (Imagine your body flying up to hit the roof suddenly for no reason, imagine gravity casually decides to stop working)
And what's so exciting about living in the Moon anyway?