Questions for theists.

[edk]

It was those values that motivated us to bail you gits out, so you shouldn't knock them

Oh, you're a nationalistic fuck as well? Somehow, that doesn't surprise me.

[5thHorseman]

Bailed us out. What are you on about?

[fr0d0]

1. You will be put in Hell, probably. I don't know for sure because only God knows your future in the next life.

Assuming this to be the case, do you think I deserve it? Bear in mind my 'crime' is 'not believing in something I saw insufficient evidence for', and my punishment would be eternal torment (FOREVER).

Do I deserve it?

Not doing what is right is always not doing what is right.

[thesummerqueen]

Yeah...but if you do something that's "not right" in pursuit of doing something that is, do you still deserve to be punished?

---

For eternity?

[lucent]

This country was founded on judeo-christian values, and up until the 1960s (with some large exceptions), we followed them. It has been the loss of those values which has made America less great. It was those values that motivated us to bail you gits out, so you shouldn't knock them

Really? I thought it was founded on secular grounds:

Jefferson: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State".

The 1796 Treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "not in any sense founded on the Christian religion". This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

And that the founding fathers were deists and NOT xtians:

"That Jesus did not mean to impose Himself on mankind as the Son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in the lore." -- Thomas Jefferson's letter to William Short, August 4, 1820

"But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism" -- Thomas Jefferson's letter to William Short, April 13, 1820;

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.  Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." - John Adams

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." - Benjamin Franklin

"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion." - Thomas Paine

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation.  During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial.  What has been its fruits?  More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."    - James Madison Ibid, 1785

Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."           -Thomas Jefferson writing about George Washington in his private journal, Feb. 1800

"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession." - Spoken by Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis

Seems fairly clear to me. There seems to be a lot of revisionist twaddle from the xtian right, romanticizing that the US was founded on xtianity. I don't think those that founded it thought that and none of the laws they passed would in anyway suggest that. Certainly some European countries can claim there historic [/font]constitution was at least partly founded on xtianity, but the US, nah.

Read the mayflower compact some time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower_Compact

The founding fathers were predominantly Christian. You can't rewrite history..there is overwhelming evidence to suggest this is true:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams 2nd president

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." John Adams

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
John Adams

God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us. Thomas Jefferson

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." Thomas Jefferson

Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us." John Hancock

Benjamin Franklin

Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

Samuel Adams

And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Madison 4th president

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

James Monroe 5th president

When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."

etc..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHU-M2svUaQ

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It was those values that motivated us to bail you gits out, so you shouldn't knock them

Oh, you're a nationalistic fuck as well? Somehow, that doesn't surprise me.

sigh, it was a joke..i care about america but i care about people more than country

[Captain Scarlet]

You might want to re-read those quotes Lucent if you think they back your assertion.

[Zen Badger]

1. You will be put in Hell, probably. I don't know for sure because only God knows your future in the next life.

Assuming this to be the case, do you think I deserve it? Bear in mind my 'crime' is 'not believing in something I saw insufficient evidence for', and my punishment would be eternal torment (FOREVER).

Do I deserve it?

Not doing what is right is always not doing what is right.

But the question is "do you think he deserves it?"

[JollyForr]

'no equivilency between faith and superstition.'' As you and no one else has proof of you divine creator they have similarities.

There is plenty of evidence, but only God can prove Himself.

Can you tell me what evidence you speak of? What does it actually involve? If it is just a sensuous thrill, or is it your God revealing himself in physical form, telling you that it is his creation, and can willingly disprove that all other gods are begot by imagination? Why is your "evidence", different from the "evidence" received from men of different faiths? I'm sure their "evidence", or sensuous faith, is exactly the same as yours.

[thesummerqueen]

Can you tell me what evidence you speak of? What does it actually involve? If it is just a sensuous thrill,

Shit, then god's been revealing himself to me at the most inconvenient time. Then again, I was yelling his name.

[5thHorseman]

Can you tell me what evidence you speak of? What does it actually involve? If it is just a sensuous thrill,

Shit, then god's been revealing himself to me at the most inconvenient time. Then again, I was yelling his name.

It was good for you too?