Questions for theists.

[Statler Waldorf]

Your post #83...which I agree is pretty fucking pointless but you do seem to be saying that you can't face life without thinking that your fairy tales are true.

I find that enormously sad.

Who said anything about fairy tales?

When it comes to reality, your desires mean fuck all. To see reality as it is, is to ignore personal feelings and desires and to accept what you see. We are specks living on a speck which is part of a speck and that speck is just part of another speck. Stating that I'm just an insignificant and meaningless speck would in fact be very accurate.

Ace, why would you make the mistake of equating purpose and importance with size and scale? Given this same fallacious logic you’d have to say that an obese man is more important than a newborn child simply because he is bigger. Humans can be a speck in the grand cosmos and yet still be one of the main reasons the cosmos was created in the first place.

Well being without one to me means you're free to create a sense of purpose for yourself instead of following a pre-set one.

Why would you create a sense of purpose if you know that there really is not one? Isn’t that a form of self deception?

The best thing about religion is that it's only a belief. A very improbable and silly belief that's based on ignorance.

Notice that the statement that life has no purpose was also stated as a belief, religious people are not the only ones who hold beliefs.

[Ace Otana]

Ace, why would you make the mistake of equating purpose and importance with size and scale? Given this same fallacious logic you’d have to say that an obese man is more important than a newborn child simply because he is bigger. Humans can be a speck in the grand cosmos and yet still be one of the main reasons the cosmos was created in the first place.

You missed the point. If we are just tiny insignificant specks then that is what we are. Feelings and desires mean fuck all. If you can't handle the fact that NOTHING suggests the cosmos was created for us then that's your problem.
Also it's a bit arrogant considering we don't yet know what else is out there. Perhaps there's an alien race that's important and not us. Perhaps the universe was created for them and not us. So why don't we just state that we are small and there is no reason to suggest we are significant.

Why would you create a sense of purpose if you know that there really is not one? Isn’t that a form of self deception?

My purpose in life is to live, and enjoy my life as much as possible. Care for loved ones and to archive all the things I want to archive. I've created a purpose for myself. Why? Well why not? Where's the deception?

Notice that the statement that life has no purpose was also stated as a belief, religious people are not the only ones who hold beliefs.

Stating what we know now is not a religious belief of some kind. Otherwise anything we know now could be considered a religious belief. There is no reason or evidence to suggest that we're special or that all this was created for us. In fact just about everything can kill us.

[Cinjin]

Why would you create a sense of purpose if you know that there really is not one? Isn’t that a form of self deception?

My purpose in life is to live, and enjoy my life as much as possible. Care for loved ones and to archive all the things I want to archive. I've created a purpose for myself. Why? Well why not? Where's the deception?

There is no deception Ace. His entire line of questioning is stupid and OBVIOUS baiting. He believes that only the people who endorse HIS god and HIS religion can have a purpose in life. See enjoying life is not a good enough purpose to him so therefore it is not an acceptable answer. You see, like all arguments with Statler, HE decides what's legitimate and what's allowed. HE decides whether or not you can even have a purpose without his god. You see, like Lucent, he is an arrogant SOB who will consider nothing but his own views as valid.

Besides, he can't allow you to have a purpose in life ... because that would serve to nullify his relationship with his god.



...and now directly at Statler:

This entire line of questioning is so pointless it seems to be obvious baiting. As they say in the ghetto ... "you need to chill out and check yoself"

seriously, even for you, it's some seriously stupid shit.

[Statler Waldorf]

[quote='Ace Otana' pid='201839' dateline='1320346053']
You missed the point. If we are just tiny insignificant specks then that is what we are. Feelings and desires mean fuck all. If you can't handle the fact that NOTHING suggests the cosmos was created for us then that's your problem. [/quote]

You missed my point, just because we are tiny specks does not prove we are insignificant. If the universe was created for us, then we are very significant.
[quote] Also it's a bit arrogant considering we don't yet know what else is out there. Perhaps there's an alien race that's important and not us. Perhaps the universe was created for them and not us. So why don't we just state that we are small and there is no reason to suggest we are significant. [/quote]

Well those are merely hypothetical scenarios, which do not really get us anywhere. Perhaps Christ will come back and we will all be shown to be truly significant, hypothetical scenarios can work both ways you know.

[quote]
Stating what we know now is not a religious belief of some kind. Otherwise anything we know now could be considered a religious belief. There is no reason or evidence to suggest that we're special or that all this was created for us. In fact just about everything can kill us.
/quote]
If we are the only life in the universe, which is what the current observed evidence suggests, then we are indeed special by definition right?

[quote='Cinjin' pid='201849' dateline='1320346853']

There is no deception Ace. His entire line of questioning is stupid and OBVIOUS baiting. He believes that only the people who endorse HIS god and HIS religion can have a purpose in life. See enjoying life is not a good enough purpose to him so therefore it is not an acceptable answer. You see, like all arguments with Statler, HE decides what's legitimate and what's allowed. HE decides whether or not you can even have a purpose without his god. You see, like Lucent, he is an arrogant SOB who will consider nothing but his own views as valid.

Besides, he can't allow you to have a purpose in life ... because that would serve to nullify his relationship with his god. [/quote]

How ironic considering you were the one who said life is all part of the process and essentially meaningless. Are you now changing your position and asserting life does have purpose and meaning?


[quote] ...and now directly at Statler:

This entire line of questioning is so pointless it seems to be obvious baiting. As they say in the ghetto ... "you need to chill out and check yoself"
[/quote]

Are you going to direct this to 5thHorseman considering this whole thread was started with questions that were obvious baiting? Every unbeliever on here wanted to see the Christians say that his nice grandma was going to hell. Apply your rules to everyone please, there is no special pleading allowed in these parts there Tex. I asked Ace those questions because he is a straight shooter and gives honest answers, notice I didn’t direct the question to you.

[Cinjin]

Are you going to direct this to 5thHorseman considering this whole thread was started with questions that were obvious baiting? Every unbeliever on here wanted to see the Christians say that his nice grandma was going to hell. Apply your rules to everyone please, there is no special pleading allowed in these parts there Tex. I asked Ace those questions because he is a straight shooter and gives honest answers, notice I didn’t direct the question to you.

Actually "Tex" you don't have a leg to stand on regarding 5th's line of questioning. If you will refer to Post #3 and Post #9, 5thHorseman was very gracious and accepted the answers given without the slightest comment as to their credibility.

Ace is a straight shooter. I'm not sure how that implies that I am not, but you certainly have a right to your opinion of me.

[Jackalope]

Just out of curiosity, do you like being told that your life and death are just part of the process and essentially meaningless? I think that is more offensive than anything a Christian could tell you. At least I believe you are made in the image of God, deserving of love and dignity, and that you are here to serve a purpose.

I'd like to throw in my two cents here as well.

I don't find it offensive at all. I'm an existentialist. In my view, our existence only has whatever meaning we give it as individuals. The rest of the cosmos got along fine before I was born, and I trust it will do so after I die.

From my perspective, you find meaning in faith and scripture, I find mine elsewhere. To each his own. For what its worth, I can understand why a person of faith might take offense to it.

[Phaedra]

Every unbeliever on here wanted to see the Christians say that his nice grandma was going to hell.

Quite the contrary, actually.

[Ace Otana]

If I seem angry it's because I am. Had an eventful evening and I'm a little pissed off at the moment. A so-called friend and work colleague snitched on me and another work colleague and making nasty false accusations. He's trying to win favour with the bosses, it's back fired since everyone backed me and my other work mate up. He should lose his job by the end of this. That fucking wanker!

Anyway...

You missed my point, just because we are tiny specks does not prove we are insignificant. If the universe was created for us, then we are very significant.

Yes "if" the universe was created for us. Perhaps it wasn't. So why don't we do away with the 'ifs' and stick to what we know now. Which is we don't know. Nothing proves we are significant, but we do have reason to assume we're not.

Well those are merely hypothetical scenarios, which do not really get us anywhere. Perhaps Christ will come back and we will all be shown to be truly significant, hypothetical scenarios can work both ways you know.

That hypothetical scenarios does pull apart your argument because it demonstrates that it's too early to make wild and large assumptions about us and the cosmos, we don't know what's out there. So why assume we're the reason for the universe? Perhaps we'll discover an advanced race which was the whole point of the universe and not us. We are in the same boat. We both don't know what's out there. We both just don't know.

If we are the only life in the universe, which is what the current observed evidence suggests, then we are indeed special by definition right?

We are aware that there are life capable planets out there. 500 million life capable planets (est) in each galaxy which is over at least 200 billion. Statistically speaking, the chance of life on other worlds is effing huge! But 'if' we are the only life in the universe, then yeah, we're special. But if there are other life covered worlds, all of a sudden we're not so special anymore. It's like thinking your the only A star student in school and feel very special, only to learn that 200 others did just as well.

I asked Ace those questions because he is a straight shooter and gives honest answers,

Stat likes me!

Fuck what did I do wrong?

[Statler Waldorf]

Actually "Tex" you don't have a leg to stand on regarding 5th's line of questioning. If you will refer to Post #3 and Post #9, 5thHorseman was very gracious and accepted the answers given without the slightest comment as to their credibility.

You seriously think he didn’t already know the Christian position on such matters? I don’t think you give 5th enough credit, he’s a sharp fellow.

Ace is a straight shooter. I'm not sure how that implies that I am not, but you certainly have a right to your opinion of me.

No implying required; your actions on here more than attest to the fact that you are not one.

From my perspective, you find meaning in faith and scripture, I find mine elsewhere. To each his own. For what its worth, I can understand why a person of faith might take offense to it.

…kudos for the two cents and of course the ESP guitar in your signature.

Quite the contrary, actually.

Why is that?

Yes "if" the universe was created for us. Perhaps it wasn't. So why don't we do away with the 'ifs' and stick to what we know now. Which is we don't know. Nothing proves we are significant, but we do have reason to assume we're not.

First of all, I am sorry about what happened to you at work, that sort of stuff really sucks. Well I guess the difference between us is that you believe we know that we are insignificant because we were not created, I believe we can know we are significant because we were created. So now it’s a bit of a Mexican standoff.

That hypothetical scenarios does pull apart your argument because it demonstrates that it's too early to make wild and large assumptions about us and the cosmos, we don't know what's out there. So why assume we're the reason for the universe? Perhaps we'll discover an advanced race which was the whole point of the universe and not us. We are in the same boat. We both don't know what's out there. We both just don't know.

Well I think we are going to miss each other on this one as well because we start at different starting points. I know we are significant because scripture says we are, you reject scripture’s authority so you don’t believe we are significant. So it’s a difference of viewpoints really.

We are aware that there are life capable planets out there. 500 million life capable planets (est) in each galaxy which is over at least 200 billion. Statistically speaking, the chance of life on other worlds is effing huge! But 'if' we are the only life in the universe, then yeah, we're special. But if there are other life covered worlds, all of a sudden we're not so special anymore. It's like thinking your the only A star student in school and feel very special, only to learn that 200 others did just as well.

Well having life capable planets doesn’t prove there is other life out there, I am just going by what we have observed and we have been observed to be the only life in the universe.

Stat likes me!

Yeah you are fun to talk to, even when you are grumpy.

[Ace Otana]

First of all, I am sorry about what happened to you at work, that sort of stuff really sucks. Well I guess the difference between us is that you believe we know that we are insignificant because we were not created, I believe we can know we are significant because we were created. So now it’s a bit of a Mexican standoff.

Yeah, when co-workers turn on each other like that, just makes things harder for everyone else. I'm going to see if I can have him fired, his own actions have already pushed him in that direction. I've got the backing from 4 other workers.
We do indeed stand opposite to each other. I state that I do not know where all this came from and I won't pretend otherwise. I can honestly admit that I haven't a fucking clue where it all came from. You believe in scripture and assume the universe was created. Quite opposite.

Well I think we are going to miss each other on this one as well because we start at different starting points. I know we are significant because scripture says we are, you reject scripture’s authority so you don’t believe we are significant. So it’s a difference of viewpoints really.

I reject scripture because I don't think it's true. What I've seen contradicts what creationists claim. Like the formation of galaxies, solar systems and planets. That through forces of nature like gravity and the like, it pulls all the materials from the big bang together. And with so much mass, there'd be plenty of galaxies with sextillions of suns and planets within them and that many of them would be adequate for life. So yeah once again two very differing views, one from naturalism and the other, creationism.

Well having life capable planets doesn’t prove there is other life out there, I am just going by what we have observed and we have been observed to be the only life in the universe.

Doesn't prove but heavily supports. It supports the idea that we're not alone. That a few light years away or many are beings who may be less or more advanced than us, with their own religions based on their race and their importance like ours. I find it a rather interesting and wonderful thought. Much better than the idea that we're completely alone.

Yeah you are fun to talk to, even when you are grumpy.

I'm never grumpy! Just occasionally aggressive with certain people!