evolutionary psychology

[evolcon]

Any animal with a capacity for learning must in part be a product of his environment. But to believe that all the problems of mankind can find their source in human society and may be exercised forever by environment manipulation is to make of man a most modest backboard on which any other may write his name

I see I stimulated a response even if it was limited to a quote. (had to enlarge to read, apologies) I don't think many people completely disregard EP, just many of the claims made in it's name. And taking the negative position that "to believe that all the problems" come from society is not a very good justification to support EP.

How about talking to us, giving us your views/opinions on Audrey and EP? I see that others are referenced as "founders".

[brewer]

I see I stimulated a response even if it was limited to a quote. (had to enlarge to read, apologies) I don't think many people completely disregard EP, just many of the claims made in it's name. And taking the negative position that "to believe that all the problems" come from society is not a very good justification to support EP.

How about talking to us, giving us your views/opinions on Audrey and EP? I see that others are referenced as "founders".

You might be having a forum communication issue. To respond to an individual's comment select the "Reply" button (at the bottom of the individuals post) , then scroll down to the lowest portion that will let you set the cursor.

[evolcon]

^ I second that. Rather than copy/pasting wikipedia, why don't we have a discussion? I know very little about evolutionary psych. But it sounds interesting.

Additionally, you may want to "paste as plain test" [ctrl+shift+v in windows] because your quotes are coming out as tiny text. You can also click "view source" on the far right of the interface when posting. That button is your buddy. And when in that mode, your pastes will automatically be plain text.

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I don't really have much to say on the subject anymore. My thoughts on EP have been solidified since the thought wars of the 90's & 20's. I'm way too old to change my mind. the only reason that I posted was to see if the subject was still being debated.
We are simply evolved apes with language, but language has made an incredible difference, We now have access thru though to all that has come before us. we use language to access stored information.

[vulcanlogician]

^ I second that. Rather than copy/pasting wikipedia, why don't we have a discussion? I know very little about evolutionary psych. But it sounds interesting.

Additionally, you may want to "paste as plain test" [ctrl+shift+v in windows] because your quotes are coming out as tiny text. You can also click "view source" on the far right of the interface when posting. That button is your buddy. And when in that mode, your pastes will automatically be plain text.

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I don't really have much to say on the subject anymore. My thoughts on EP have been solidified since the thought wars of the 90's & 20's. I'm way too old to change my mind. the only reason that I posted was to see if the subject was still being debated.
We are simply evolved apes with language, but language has made an incredible difference, We now have access thru though to all that has come before us. we use language to access stored information.

Okay. I mean... I have thoughts and opinions on the subject. But a debate would need more context. (Like, the ethics angle, etc.)

It isn't really debated much here that I've seen. But that doesn't mean a discussion/debate/analysis can't occur.

I see the view "we are simply evolved apes with language" to be an accurate but paradigmatic view. We could discover much about humanity/society by looking through that lens. But there are, of course, other paradigms too. And they produce their own kind of insights.

[brewer]

^ I second that. Rather than copy/pasting wikipedia, why don't we have a discussion? I know very little about evolutionary psych. But it sounds interesting.

Additionally, you may want to "paste as plain test" [ctrl+shift+v in windows] because your quotes are coming out as tiny text. You can also click "view source" on the far right of the interface when posting. That button is your buddy. And when in that mode, your pastes will automatically be plain text.

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I don't really have much to say on the subject anymore. My thoughts on EP have been solidified since the thought wars of the 90's & 20's. I'm way too old to change my mind. the only reason that I posted was to see if the subject was still being debated.
We are simply evolved apes with language, but language has made an incredible difference, We now have access thru though to all that has come before us. we use language to access stored information.

Not discounting the human advantage of language but there is non-language stored/transmitted information laso

And I'm not sure what this has to do with EP other than 'Yea Language'.

[evolcon]

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I don't really have much to say on the subject anymore. My thoughts on EP have been solidified since the thought wars of the 90's & 20's. I'm way too old to change my mind. the only reason that I posted was to see if the subject was still being debated.
We are simply evolved apes with language, but language has made an incredible difference, We now have access thru though to all that has come before us. we use language to access stored information.

Not discounting the human advantage of language but there is non-language stored/transmitted information laso

And I'm not sure what this has to do with EP other than 'Yea Language'.

My main point is simply that the difference between the human mind and the animal mind is language, and only language
A quick example, you may have seen the video of the crow confronted with a piece of food at the bottom of a class tube too deep for him to reach, there are also a few objects laying around including a toothpick type stick. Once the crow realizes that he cannot reach the morsel on his own, he cocks his head and looks around, he spots the toothpick, picks it up with his mouth reaches in the tube, spears the food, lifts it our and eats. (applause all around)
A very resourceful animal, but the difference between the crow and a human is this, if you removed the crow after he saw the situation, but before he had a chance to act, he would not have any memory of the problem, he can only operate  on the immediate sensory input, the  way humans recall memory is by using internal language, that is how we (humans) do it. no animal has directed thought simply because they don't have language
I can solve that problem, (the treat in the tube) if it described to me, using language, and I can solve it sitting at my desk at home, because using internal language, what we call thought, I can recall the images, food, glass tube and toothpick. and manipulate them in my mind, using internal language, because those images are stored in my mind. and stored associated with names. In short, no animal can solve a problem without immediate sensory input,. he cannot recall images because it has no access to his memory, his memory is only triggered by immediate sensory input. It is language that gives us access to all that is stored in our mind.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Not discounting the human advantage of language but there is non-language stored/transmitted information laso

And I'm not sure what this has to do with EP other than 'Yea Language'.

My main point is simply that the difference between the human mind and the animal mind is language, and only language
A quick example, you may have seen the video of the crow confronted with a piece of food at the bottom of a class tube too deep for him to reach, there are also a few objects laying around including a toothpick type stick. Once the crow realizes that he cannot reach the morsel on his own, he cocks his head and looks around, he spots the toothpick, picks it up with his mouth reaches in the tube, spears the food, lifts it our and eats. (applause all around)
A very resourceful animal, but the difference between the crow and a human is this, if you removed the crow after he saw the situation, but before he had a chance to act, he would not have any memory of the problem, he can only operate  on the immediate sensory input, the  way humans recall memory is by using internal language, that is how we (humans) do it. no animal has directed thought simply because they don't have language
I can solve that problem, (the treat in the tube) if it described to me, using language, and I can solve it sitting at my desk at home, because using internal language, what we call thought, I can recall the images, food, glass tube and toothpick. and manipulate them in my mind, using internal language, because those images are stored in my mind. and stored associated with names. In short, no animal can solve a problem without immediate sensory input,. he cannot recall images because it has no access to his memory, his memory is only triggered by immediate sensory input. It is language that gives us access to all that is stored in our mind.

That doesn’t seem to be entirely correct. Several kinds of animals (corvids, non-human primates, cetaceans) have been observed to use problem solving learned in one locus in another, and at a later time. The crow in your example, on his first at at the treat-in-the-bottle test, would try the objects at random until he found that the toothpick worked. On subsequent tests, he would use the toothpick immediately, even if it was part of a larger group of objects than in the original experiment. Similarly, dolphins and great apes have been known to pass learned behaviour on to their offspring, and to apply that behaviour in situations markedly different than the original.

Boru

[Angrboda]

Crows are also known to have a great memory for where they've cached food. The idea that we think in language goes by the name the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and has largely fallen out of favor.

[evolcon]

Crows are also known to have a great memory for where they've cached food.  The idea that we think in language goes by the name the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and has largely fallen out of favor.

I'm talking about the advantage of language, try to make the crow solve the problem by explaining it to him. 
 And I'm aware of Sapir-Whorf
I'm explaining the
 great leap from a upright ape to a technological advanced current human, that certainly involved more than just time

[brewer]

Not discounting the human advantage of language but there is non-language stored/transmitted information laso

And I'm not sure what this has to do with EP other than 'Yea Language'.

My main point is simply that the difference between the human mind and the animal mind is language, and only language
A quick example, you may have seen the video of the crow confronted with a piece of food at the bottom of a class tube too deep for him to reach, there are also a few objects laying around including a toothpick type stick. Once the crow realizes that he cannot reach the morsel on his own, he cocks his head and looks around, he spots the toothpick, picks it up with his mouth reaches in the tube, spears the food, lifts it our and eats. (applause all around)
A very resourceful animal, but the difference between the crow and a human is this, if you removed the crow after he saw the situation, but before he had a chance to act, he would not have any memory of the problem, he can only operate  on the immediate sensory input, the  way humans recall memory is by using internal language, that is how we (humans) do it. no animal has directed thought simply because they don't have language
I can solve that problem, (the treat in the tube) if it described to me, using language, and I can solve it sitting at my desk at home, because using internal language, what we call thought, I can recall the images, food, glass tube and toothpick. and manipulate them in my mind, using internal language, because those images are stored in my mind. and stored associated with names. In short, no animal can solve a problem without immediate sensory input,. he cannot recall images because it has no access to his memory, his memory is only triggered by immediate sensory input. It is language that gives us access to all that is stored in our mind.

Maybe you should have started out talking about language with respect to EP.

Not all communication within a species requires language, not even humans. Nor do humans require words to recall images or events.

I understand your position but believe it's being overstated with claims that are not completely accurate.