New theistic chew toys wanted!

[Spongebob]

Well, from one perspective, happiness is among the benefits of Buddhistic enlightenment. The Four Noble Truths lay out a path to escape suffering. Inasmuch as happiness becomes possible once one is no longer suffering (and one may argue that non-suffering is a kind of happiness)... you could say that Buddhism is concerned with happiness.

That's consistent with my understanding.  Happiness isn't so much a goal, rather a fortunate outcome.

I disagree. Plato, Aristotle, and Epicurus all saw happiness as some kind of fundamental good, or at least as a product of good living (as did many other ancient thinkers).

That's my lack of knowledge of the ancients.  I admit I haven't studied ancient philosophers nearly enough.  What little I have learned seems to be a determination to to find truth and justice.  After the fall of Rome and medieval feudalism took hold, life was very different.  In some ways the inhabitants of the ancient and classical world understood things that the medieval world forgot.  Of course for the average person in any of those periods, life would likely hold very little opportunity for the examination of happiness.  But for the great thinkers such concepts were within reach.

But still, in the modern world there are thousands of books published, TV shows, podcasts, countless songs and careers of tens of thousands of therapists, all devoted to this thing we call "happiness".  It's an obsession.  What I have learned about history tells me that this level of pursuit has never occurred in recorded history and what we mean by happiness may be very different from what anyone in the past was thinking.

---

Bolding mine.

What are you defining as happiness? Because I do consider the things you mentioned to be happiness.

I put happiness on a scale AND consider it a fluctuating state that comes and goes. I can have a miserable job situation, getting abuse from customers, working with people I dislike. Yet I can consider myself happy not only over all, because of a measure of tolerance for bad situations (there's a difference between feeling stressed and emotionally abused by your workplace and just feeling unfulfilled by it in different aspects; the latter can make me uncomfortable but I can tolerate not liking my job in that way whereas the former would be the line where I'd define myself as consistently unhappy). But I can also find happiness states in moments. Like the security that comes from being able to pay bills and live without worrying so much. The occasional customer relationships where I feel like I'm making a difference or the regulars who know me and seek me out that make all the bad/rude ones vanish from my mind. I can have good moments offwork that bring me peace and fulfillment (sometimes a job is just a job. Not everything you do for work will satisfy your ambitions and dreams and you can have those things fulfilled outside of work).

So, it's a scale, of these small moments of happiness and pleasure in life adding up to an overall definition of each day collectively. But the state isn't permanent. And it is also defined by the absence of harsher situations and pain, which are also on a scale(like, a bad day here and there is not going to tip the scale even if those bad days are really terrible and make me unhappy for the whole day in question).

This is why I said it was difficult to define.  Happiness is not an exact concept.  Is the absence of suffering "happiness"?  Perhaps to some.  Is it rather elation with life?  I'm not going to pretend to define it for anyone other than myself.

[Ahriman]

This is why I said it was difficult to define.  Happiness is not an exact concept.  Is the absence of suffering "happiness"?  Perhaps to some.  Is it rather elation with life?  I'm not going to pretend to define it for anyone other than myself.

I know I am suffering, but I am still happy. I am like a singing bird trapped in a cage.

[zwanzig]

This is why I said it was difficult to define.  Happiness is not an exact concept.  Is the absence of suffering "happiness"?  Perhaps to some.  Is it rather elation with life?  I'm not going to pretend to define it for anyone other than myself.

That's a bit of a copout. We can define it generally, at least the pieces involved, like emotions and circumstances, enough to have a discussion about it without being in danger of prescribing how people should live. Otherwise, we talk past each other like, "unless you associate contentment and peace with happiness." ...yes. Peace and contentment ARE a part of the definition of happiness.

But I at least understand better what you are saying about the modern versus past definitions of happiness.

[Neo-Scholastic]

The secret to happiness is low expectations.

[vulcanlogician]

But still, in the modern world there are thousands of books published, TV shows, podcasts, countless songs and careers of tens of thousands of therapists, all devoted to this thing we call "happiness".  It's an obsession.  What I have learned about history tells me that this level of pursuit has never occurred in recorded history and what we mean by happiness may be very different from what anyone in the past was thinking.

I do think you're on to something, Spongebob. While happiness may not be a "modern invention" it still may nonetheless be a "human invention." A kind of illusion that we pursue... and those books, TV shows, fashion magazines that hold up happiness before us are really just manipulating us into buying something. Oftentimes they even forcefully tell us what happiness is: "If you buy our weight loss product, you will be beautiful. And only then will you be happy."

All this being said, I still think that a rational human does want happiness of some kind. But even this "natural" urge toward happiness may be illusory. An artificial construct... hence the ability for magazines and such to manipulate us.

***
Happiness is a myth we seek,
If manifested surely irks;
Like river speeding to the plain,
On its arrival slows and murks.

For man is happy only in
His aspiration to the heights;
When he attains his goal, he cools
And longs for other distant flights.

--Kahlil Gibran

[Silver]

The secret to happiness is low expectations.

Low expectations is actually the way of avoiding disappointment.

[Spongebob]

This is why I said it was difficult to define.  Happiness is not an exact concept.  Is the absence of suffering "happiness"?  Perhaps to some.  Is it rather elation with life?  I'm not going to pretend to define it for anyone other than myself.

That's a bit of a copout. We can define it generally, at least the pieces involved, like emotions and circumstances, enough to have a discussion about it without being in danger of prescribing how people should live. Otherwise, we talk past each other like, "unless you associate contentment and peace with happiness." ...yes. Peace and contentment ARE a part of the definition of happiness.

But I at least understand better what you are saying about the modern versus past definitions of happiness.

If you don't believe me, find a group of like minded people and have an open and frank discussion.  I expect you'll find more diversity in how you feel about happiness than you will find consistency.  For one thing, if you ask just about any person who's living a somewhat well adjusted life if they are happy, you will get a response that's easily in the %90+ range.  Even if you ask people whom you know to be miserable.  Why is that?  And there will be some who surprise you because you were sure they were happy but it turns out they judge their life differently and don't identify as a happy person.  The subject has more layers than most people realize.  This is why there's such a gigantic industry based on this one ephemeral concept.  I think artists come closer than any learned physician in actually capturing the essence of happiness.

[Ahriman]

That's a bit of a copout. We can define it generally, at least the pieces involved, like emotions and circumstances, enough to have a discussion about it without being in danger of prescribing how people should live. Otherwise, we talk past each other like, "unless you associate contentment and peace with happiness." ...yes. Peace and contentment ARE a part of the definition of happiness.

But I at least understand better what you are saying about the modern versus past definitions of happiness.

If you don't believe me, find a group of like minded people and have an open and frank discussion.  I expect you'll find more diversity in how you feel about happiness than you will find consistency.  For one thing, if you ask just about any person who's living a somewhat well adjusted life if they are happy, you will get a response that's easily in the %90+ range.  Even if you ask people whom you know to be miserable.  Why is that?  And there will be some who surprise you because you were sure they were happy but it turns out they judge their life differently and don't identify as a happy person.  The subject has more layers than most people realize.  This is why there's such a gigantic industry based on this one ephemeral concept.  I think artists come closer than any learned physician in actually capturing the essence of happiness.

Not even close. Some physicians, known as psychiatrists, have the authority to prescribe medications for happy and unhappy people alike.......the happy people will be happier for a longer period of time, possibly for the rest of their lives, and the unhappy people will be more content with their unhappiness. What is art going to do? Give me something nice to look at for a minute? Please.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Not even close. Some physicians, known as psychiatrists, have the authority to prescribe medications for happy and unhappy people alike.......the happy people will be happier for a longer period of time, possibly for the rest of their lives, and the unhappy people will be more content with their unhappiness. What is art going to do? Give me something nice to look at for a minute? Please.

That's an absurd statement (this is coming from a psychiatrist)

[Spongebob]

Just ignore her. Not everyone's opinion is worth the air it takes to present it.

It's also worth pointing out that my own understanding of happiness has evolved greatly over my life. I would be saying very different things in my 20's than I do now. Part of it is the tendency of society or authority figures (in my case church leaders and parents) to influence your views. Because it isn't a simple and clear concept, its worth disconnecting from what other people think and truly exploring what you value. My greatest wish is to almost totally disconnect from society but like heroin, it has a grip that is difficult to sever.