New religion

[Carnavon]

***DeistPaladin Edited this post to shorten it. This deleted part was just a repost of this post.***

Great post it seems and one I would dearly like to respond to now, but am a bit pushed for time. Please allow me a day or two? Thank you

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Evolution is a fact. Get over it and be proud to be an African ape.

I am sure that you can prove that?

How can you prove apart from the bible that we all descended from a guy created from dirt and a woman who was formed out of the rib of guy.

You made the claim.

[Justtristo]

You made the claim.

I cannot imagine that the first three chapters of the book of Genesis have completely escaped your attention. Either you are astoundingly stupid or you don't realize some of us on here know the bible as well or even better than you.

When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground—then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Genesis 2:5-7 ESV

21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.

Genesis 2: 21-22 ESV

Remember according to 2 Timothy these verses I have quoted above are breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV

Anyway it is simple to prove that we humans are related to degree to all life on earth. Because scientists have sequenced the whole human genome (not to mention along with other forms of life), so they have been able to compare human DNA to that of other forms of life. The results show that all life is descended from a common ancestor which lived around 3 billion years old. Also that the closest relations to us (humans) are Chimps, followed by other Great Apes, then Gibbons, then Old World Monkeys, then New World Monkeys, then Tarsiers, then lemurs, lorises, etc.

Both Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne discuss about this in their wonderful books The Greatest Show on Earth and Why Evolution is True

[Erinome]

Evolution is a fact. Get over it and be proud to be an African ape.

I am sure that you can prove that?

I sure can, dear. I don't make claims that can't be proven.

First of all, you are an ape:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape

Secondly, we are all Africans:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/07/1...6220070718

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wko_kMyljVU

[mayor of simpleton]

Evolution is a fact. Get over it and be proud to be an African ape.

I am sure that you can prove that?

Perhaps it would be prudent here to point out that "evolution" is not a reference to mankind "evolving" from ape, but rather a "buzz word" for the deterministic system of accumulation/adaptation.

In other words, over the course of time determining factors influence and shape (adapt) actions/events that these factors predicate. These "new" factors in turn influence the next set of actions/events, as well as refine our perspective and understanding of previous determining factors. Perhaps one could refer to this as a "butterfly effect".

Now... it is important here not to confuse this with fatalism. We are only speaking of factors that predicate current and future actions and events... these factors do not "fate" an event to unfold as it has.

If this is not clear, perhaps this article by Alan White might be of help. http://www.manitowoc.uwc.edu/staff/awhite/freewill.htm

This is not a system of belief, but rather how space/time experiences functions. There are no particular morals, ethics, agendas, intentions wishes, desires or other such issues involved here. Spacetime simply moves on. Events and actions occur, that is are perceived. These sitimuli are brought along a baggage to the next stimuli. These events and actions are part of the experience and thus have an effect/affect on all other future experiences; thus an adaption via the previous experiences does occur.

Perhaps beating a dead hose here, but a folly is indeed fun, well maybe...

If you wish to take this back to the "Big Bang", this is fine... that is indeed possible, but I'd personally question why anyone would really try to bother... some people have other hobbies than I do...

Now if you go to the absurdity of questioning what was "before the Big Bang" or "where did the Big Bang occur"... well we have a bit of a problem here.

Dig this...

As difficult as it is to conceive, space/time have their 'beginning' with the 'Big Bang'. To ask 'where' it occurred is somehow inappropriate seeing that there was no 'where' in the sense that we conceive 'where' as our 'where' is a direct product of space/time, which was what had it's 'beginning' with the event itself. I sort of highlight the 'beginning' as such because it is a temporal indication founded in our understanding of space/time (what was the result ex post facto).

The problem here is that all of our understanding is subject to our experience of space/time. The questions of where before where, as well as the 'before' before 'before' need to come from outside of our space/time experience. As I can (sort of) grasp it, the explanation for such an event must seem very incoherent to our understanding as it must indeed be something no included in our experience. (This does indeed include our anthropomorphic proxy of ego we defind to be god; thus the appeal to this assumed deity to be the catalyst is a product of convenient wishful intuitive thinking and not any empirical process... thus my ignostic atheist position regarding deism or pantheism... occham's razor allows me to shave off this as a redundancy.)

This is just a suggestion, but I tend to find it better when I do not attempt to make the universe limited to my personal understanding of language. This limitation being that my understanding of language is indeed a part of this space/time and what we are asking is... (sorry I cannot describe it any better than "...")

Accumulation/adaptation is evident in all aspects of life. Whether we are speaking of biology, languages, technologies or even going to your local fitness center, input will indeed effect/affect output. The new output will continue this process of accumulation and pending adaptation, included refining the understanding and awareness of what was seen in the input.

As for the apes to mankind evolution... this is not an issue to be settled in a debate of theology or philosophy. It is an issue to be resolved by scientists involved in the field of gentics.

Is "evolution" (accumulation /adaptation) a fact? YES.

Meow!

GREG

[DeistPaladin]

Great post it seems and one I would dearly like to respond to now, but am a bit pushed for time. Please allow me a day or two? Thank you

Certainly. At the very least, whether you respond or not, I hope I've made it clear why we freethinkers find Islamo-Christian so dangerous.

[Carnavon]

Danger #1. Islamo-Christianity proposes not only that there is a god but that this god is opposed by a devil. The universe is a battle ground between these two opposing sides. [/b]

There are only two sides in this "spiritual struggle". There is no "Bob, the Neutral Christ" in either religion. Additionally, the side that serves the good god is well defined in the mind of the fundamentalist. It's always the side of your own religion, of course. After all, Islamo-Christianity is all about "serving God", however their individual sect and denomination may define God.

I would assume that if something is true , alternatives would not be true.
Is evolution true? It has been stated on this forum that it is a fact and you did not disagree.

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If they encounter a religion, belief, lifestyle, game or whatever is outside their idea of serving God, it rather narrows it down who these outsiders are serving, doesn't it? It's called process of elimination.

Giving the logic a rundown:
1. Presupposition: Total Powers of the Universe = God and Satan
2. Presupposition: "My religion = serving God"
3. Observation: Group outside my religion
4. Definition: "Not my religion = Not serving God"
5. Process of elimination: "Not serving God = Serving Satan"
6. Conclusion: "Outside group = manipulated by Satan or serving him"

Many Islamo-Christians might not want to take the "reasoning" that far but I hope this breakdown explains why the more extreme fundamentalists cry "Satanism" or "evil" when exposed to a religion, lifestyle, etc. that doesn't fit their narrow views of what is righteous.

I accept your assessment as a fair reflection of general views. However, I will make it subject to a condition – we are not to judge others as a matter of condemning them. People of other religions/a-religious are not my “enemies” but only people to whom I would like to bring the message of salvation to – not as a “my religion is better than yours and you are damned” but as an honest effort to just share my faith.
The views of right and wrong is not a matter of personal opinion. We sometimes do interpret things differently. It does however not effect truths that have been revealed to us.

Forgive my ignorance, but it still escapes me how this can be a threat. We decide on a number of things every day, to the exclusion of alternatives including issues of moral. If your choice is different to mine, and even if I regard your choice as “evil”, it does not allow me the “freedom” to act in such a manner that could be described as “dangerous”. Could you suggest doctrine from the Bible that will allow such behaviour?

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Such a worldview doesn't lend itself to tolerance of other religions, apostasy or other outsiders. Further, the conviction of being in the service of God can whitewash any bad behavior. After all, what promotes your religion is promoting the service of God and therefore how could that ever be a bad thing?

As I have indicated above, tolerance should be one of the hallmarks of a Christian. Being intolerant would suggest that I do not tolerate a different opinion. Being tolerant does not suggest that I am unable to take a stand or have a position in a matter.

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Danger #2: Islamo-Christianity proposes that there are two afterlife possibilities: eternal Heaven and eternal Hell. Again, there is no middle-ground.

Why is it a danger if this is put forward as the end result of our lives on earth? I would hold an opposite view that not sharing this information will make me irresponsible and not caring about others as “I am OK Jack” and hence more “dangerous” – not to me, but to others. Why is a middle ground important? How many alternatives would you like to have and why? What is your middle ground in the present discussion?

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Exact prescriptions for salvation vary according to denomination but being part of the right religion (and sometimes the right denomination) are typically at least part of the deal if not fully. This "faith-based" scheme of salvation ratchets the stakes to alarming levels.

Exact “prescriptions” for salvation is provided in the Bible. The “prescription” is that salvation is based on mercy, and nothing that you and I can do to earn it. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There are those that base their faith on their “good works”. Such views ignore to a large extent the cross, and tend to confuse man's responsibility with playing a part in your salvation
As with the previous “danger”, I do not see what the “danger” could be.

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In fact, if Hell really is a real place where you really do go to be eternally tormented if you have not received Jesus, the stakes could not be higher, not just for you but for all your loved ones.

Indeed, the stakes are high, my friend and hence the need to bring the good news that Jesus has paid the price for our sins, and we may have peace with God through the unmerited favour of God, and nothing that one can boast of or “look down” on anybody. It is by grace only. If it depended on me, I would make a complete hash of it.

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Given this belief, how could a little torture be a bad thing. If torturing someone in this life leads them to salvation for eternity, isn't that a good thing? If burning an unrepentant heretic at the stake can silence criticism of holy doctrine and therefore save more souls for all eternity, isn't that a good thing?

I do not know who suggests that. I know that in Islam people are tortured etc to renounce their faith in Christ, but there is no indication that it would be an action sanctioned in the Bible. Again, this would be accepting that you could make somebody a Christian by merely accepting a certain doctrine– whether it be voluntary or under compulsion.

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If your child, if you have one, were about to be thrown into a lake of fire, wouldn't you use lethal force, if needed, to stop your child's assailant? How about an atheist who speaks out against your religion and therefore endangers all who heed him to Hell, including potentially your children and other loved ones?

I do not know where you would find justification for such actions in the Bible. It would be directly in opposition to what He commands. Your question however suggests that you may regard it as a viable option? This implies that people who espouses a viewpoint that you regard as “dangerous” could be dealt with rather severely – even punishment by death?

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Again, most Muslims and Christians won't take it that far but it's easy to see why a few would. Bloody crusades, jihads, inquisitions, pogroms, etc are not an aberration from Islamo-Christian doctrine but rather the very flowering of these faiths.

There has been crusades in the “Name of Christ” and people burned at the stake (i.e Tyndale) for their convictions. Thus the opinion of man is of very little importance. You would know that the Jews crucified Jesus because of his “blaspheme”, claiming to be equal to God. The question is not “what do so-called Christians do”, but what does the Bible say about it?

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How can Islamo-Christianity value liberty? How can you give freedom to those who serve the devil? How can you tolerate their liberty to do so? What is the value of their life verses saving more souls for all eternity, souls which the unrepentant heathen might take with him to Hell.

The value of a human life is not determined by my assessment of its value. Withholding freedom of religion is nowhere advocated in the Bible.

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However the Christian faith as reflected in the Bible states just the opposite.

Romans 13:1-2, just to cite one contra-example. There are plenty more but that's a good start.

The verse refers to resisting the authorities and hence judgement by them. Your assumption about the proper interpretation is further proven to be wrong by amongst others the following:
Rom 12:19....Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. ,
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. ,
Pro 20:22 Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee,
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

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To the contrary, empirical investigation is strongly encouraged in the Christian faith.
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

That verse doesn't suggest free thought, critical examination or rational inquiry at all. Grasping at straws much?

Please explain why this would not encourage/allow objective evaluation of fact?
The word mind is
G1271
διάνοια
dianoia -deep thought, properly the faculty (mind or its disposition), by implication its exercise: - imagination, mind, understanding

Probably from the base of G1097; the intellect, that is, mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will); by implication meaning: - mind, understanding.

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If Hell isn't terrifying I don't know what is.

If questioning dogma or apostasy are a ticket to Hell, how is that not slavery?

If one is encouraged to pray instead of doing it yourself, this is not empowering.

Hell. If I told you that to touch an open and live electric wire will kill you, and advise you that you may safely touch it by disconnecting it from the electricity supply point, how is that terrifying? If the Bible is true, and hell exists, you would want God to warn you?

Dogma /apostasy: If you considered slavery as somebody being able to and in fact say ” Do this or else”, then we are all slaves. We are slaves of the government, our employers, people we enter into contract with etc.
Christians happily submit to the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, as He has given us eternal life and his commands are good: (Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in His law doth he meditate day and night, Psa 40:8 (40:9) I delight to do Thy will, O my God; yea, Thy law is in my inmost parts.'; Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man; Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.).

If you think your boss is really great and his rules fair, would you regard being under his authority and rules as something to be despised?

Prayer: Your children ( I assume you have) are dependent on you for all. Would you not give them the best, and they would lovingly ask you to help them? This is similar.


***DEIST PALADIN EDITED TO FIX QUOTE BOXES***

[Jackalope]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've heard the "good news" and don't care for re-runs.

Save the preaching for an audience that gives a flying fuck.

[Carnavon]

There is no moral decline. Quite to the contrary. Evils once tolerated, like slavery, war crimes, tyrannical leaders, etc. are now reviled. Even in the last generation, with the end of segregation to greater awareness of human rights, we can see that humans are morally progressing.

Let us get this first – what is moral/ immoral and why? If I understand you correct, you suggest that war crimes, tyrannical leaders were once acceptable ? War crimes still exist, tyrannical leaders still exist, slavery still exists.

Society at large is opposed to homosexuality and pornography yet you suggest that you are in the “right” although according to your own definition, the source of morality is society.
Some of the issues I would suggest is indicative of moral decline are listed in this article”
“The following are 16 cold, hard facts that prove that America has now become a nation full of perverts....
#1) According to one major study, one out of every four married men in the United States confesses to having at least one extramarital affair.  That is just the men who will admit it.  Imagine how many others are having affairs but who are still trying to lie about it.  The truth is that marriage is one of the foundational institutions that society is built upon, but in America today it means next to nothing.
#2) A Focus on the Family survey found that 47% percent of American families said that pornography is a problem in their home.  That is not just a minor problem - that is a national epidemic.
#3) More than 70% of men in the United States between the ages of 18 and 34 visit at least one pornographic website in a typical month.  Yes, you read that correctly - 70 percent.
#4) 89 percent of all pornography is created in the United States.  11 percent is made in the rest of the world.  And yet we like to think of ourselves as so "moral" compared to the rest of the globe.
#5) Researchers conducting a major study at the University of Montreal recently launched a search for men who had never looked at pornography - but could not find a single one.
#6) Law enforcement officials estimate that about 600,000 Americans and 65,000 Canadians are trading dirty child pictures online.  They also say that the profits from creating and trading these images is approximately two to three billion dollars every single year.
#7) Young men in the United States are so addicted to sex and are so incredibly irresponsible that they are getting record numbers of young teen girls pregnant.  In fact, it was recently reported that 115 girls at one high school in Chicago alone either already have a baby or are pregnant right now.  That is absolutely mind blowing.
#8) Thanks to the moral depravity of our young American men, one out of every four teen girls in the United States now has an STD and more than 25 percent of the residents of New York City now have herpes.  Our moral sickness is spreading physical sickness all over the place and is placing a tremendous strain on our health care system.
#9) Last year, MySpace representatives and law enforcement officials worked in conjunction and were finally able to announce that approximately 90,000 sex offenders had been identified and removed from MySpace.  But doesn't it disturb you that there were 90,000 known offenders running around on MySpace in the first place?
#10) Authorities estimate that there are well over 60 million survivors of childhood sexual abuse in the United States today.  Just think about that.  60 million Americans who were abused as kids.  That statistic alone proves that America is a nation just brimming with perverts.
#11) Today there are approximately 400,000 registered sex offenders in the United States.  Yes, that is correct.  400,000 of them.  In fact, there are websites out there where you can see how many of them live on your street.  You might just be surprised.
#12) Authorities also estimate that about 95% of all teenage prostitutes were sexually abused as children.  The abuse of children in the United States is a national tragedy and a national disgrace.
#13) According to researchers, convicted rapists in the United States report that two-thirds of their victims were under 18 and 58% of those said their victims were 12 years old or younger.  How sick is that?
#14) One shocking survey revealed that American men are so completely addicted to pornography that a large number of them can't even wait to get home to look at it.  The survey found that 25 percent of American employees that have Internet access visit pornography websites while they are at work.  Do you know what your employees are doing?
#15) The truth is that producing dirty pictures for Americans is very, very big business.  89 dollars is spent on pornography every single second of every single day in the United States.
#16) In fact, porn industry revenue is larger than all of the revenues for all professional football, baseball and basketball franchises combined.  Just take a moment to think about that.
After reading all of the facts listed above, is there any doubt that America has become a nation that is absolutely overflowing with sickos, weirdos and perverts?
No, there is not.
The United States has become a place where you cannot let your children go out to play in the neighborhood without watching them like a hawk.
The United States has become a place where paedophiles and sexual predators roam neighborhoods and roam Internet chat rooms in increasingly large numbers.
The United States has become a place where looking at dirty pictures and movies on the Internet has become one of the most treasured forms of home entertainment.
Many people are scratching their heads and are wondering why the American Dream is falling apart.  Sure, the fact that the U.S. has piled up the biggest mountain of debt in the history of the world is a huge reason why it is happening.  But also the fact that we have become a nation full of perverts is another gigantic reason for our downfall.
The truth is that there is NO hope for the future of the United States if we continue to behave like this.  No nation can frolic in the moral toilet and be a great nation at the same time for long.  We are destroying our nation by what we have allowed ourselves to become. ”

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The following is interesting on what is predicted for the future:
“Robots have no conscience. The only permissible conscience will be the United Nations or a global conscience. Whether an action is good or bad will be decided by a "Global Government's Global Conscience," as recommended by Dr. Brock Chisholm, Executive Secretary of the World Health Organization, Interim Commission, in 1947-and later in 1996 by current United States Secretary of State Madeline Albright.”.

So my friend, you are being brainwashed into as society where a few people will decide what is right and wrong (you should have no problem, as you already accept that society makes the rules), and the funny thing is that you accuse Christians of being brainwashed. Also read up on Americans being “dumbed down”.

You are encouraging this regression into a nation of immoral people and call that “free thinking”?

    Orthodox Jewish Rabbi Daniel Lapin says this in his book, America’s Real War, (1999, Multnomah Publishers): 
“Often, as I speak on these issues across the country, someone in the audience hurls this tired old corker: ‘The religious Right is trying to force its values down our throats.’  I have a standard response which I enjoy offering.  I inform my listeners that the secular Left has introduced sexual indoctrination and condom distribution to eleven-year-old public school students.  It has made the enjoyment of tobacco the moral equivalent of child molestation.  It has dramatically increased illegitimacy in America.  It has created an entertainment ethos that brings smut and vulgarity into our living rooms.”

Even Oscar Wilde (not known for his Christian values), make these interesting comments:
“It is what you read when you don't have to that determines what you will be when you can't help"
“America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.”

So it all seems like a bit of doom and gloom? No, there is yet hope for those that will accept Christ. Nobody has done things bad enough not to be forgiven and the assurance is given that

Joh 6:37 …...him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus invites each and every one to

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

My friend, the answer is not more laws and international tribunals, and “free thinkers”, it comes down to a change in heart.

[Faith No More]

So if America would just stop fucking and come to Jesus everything would get better? I didn't know the economy worked that way...

[Carnavon]

So if America would just stop ..... and come to Jesus everything would get better? I didn't know the economy worked that way...

The argument was put forward as proof of poor morals.
"Coming to Jesus" is a phrase too loosely used nowadays. "Coming to Jesus" would be the result of the work of the Holy Spirit convincing a person of sin and that person experiencing deep repentance over his/her sin and turning to Jesus. It is not in the first place a "cure" for evil, or a "DIY" for a happy life with peace. The problem is that this attitude reflects again "me...me...me". This is contrary to the Christian walk, where it is first Jesus, and others (Mat 22:37 And Jesus said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind."
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Lev. 19:18
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments all the Law and the Prophets hang.

That becoming a real Christian will in fact change behaviour is a fact. In this regard it was fascinating to read of the Welsh revival "
On November 7th, 1904 Moraih Chapel was filled to capacity for a prayer meeting that lasted until 3:00 a.m. Soul winning spread through the coalmines. Profane swearing stopped. Even the miners' horses were puzzled when their masters stopped cursing.
Read on Evan Roberts.
What is also fantastic is that the Lord used young men and woman to lead the revival, not the older folks who were supposed to be "more mature". I found this little chappie on the web.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZTgitubfiM.