Is there free will in heaven?

[ElDinero]

I think the stupidest part of MK's post there is that he doesn't realise that the plural of Lego is 'Lego' and not 'Legos'.

Just kidding, it was all stupid drivel.

[Welsh cake]

Irrespective of the notion of free will, Heaven isn't actually a paradise at all when you think about in terms of basic psychology and personality typologies, its Hell.

Heaven if it exists, is a colossal failure if intended by its creator to be a state of happiness when you try to bring in introverts like myself into the frame, groups of us who are the minority compared to extroverts who regard us as nothing more than "social outcasts".

Introverts can be good-hearted decent individuals but if our free will is to be respected and not quashed by a superior force or will then any deity with a fundamental understanding of the human psyche should know we prefer to be alone, and not with it, or whoever else it deems to be its "elect". Our concept of Heaven is being by one's self.

That's not the Heaven that characterised in the Bible, its a place of feasts, parties and togetherness. Hell on the other hand is sometimes described as a place alone in darkness. As an introvert I've always preferred solitary activities over social ones, its my nature. I don't like large crowds. The thought of large gatherings singing and praising constantly would drive me insane.

I enjoy the peace and tranquillity of being alone, devoting my energies to the reflection of expanding my own understanding of myself as opposed to the stress of peer pressure and interaction with others. Of course if the Bible is true then everything is somehow my fault, that means I'm surely damned to Hell. Alas, Heaven and God's Kingdom even in the Biblical context are obviously not as perfect as some Christians would have us believe within this regard...

[Epimethean]

Heaven, the great flatline in the sky.

[Krusedullen]

I wouldn't want to go to heaven. It sounds more dreadful than Helheim. Hel isn't so bad when you think about it, and it's not supposed to be as boring as the Biorn saga claims. At least you have free will.

The Saga of Biorn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5w262XvCU

[Mystic]

You're speaking as though A: heaven exists, and B: that it represents some sort of personal growth.

I thought this thread was about whether free-will is compatible with the Christian concept of heaven. I was arguing it is compatible, not whether such a heaven exists in the first place. From what I understand of christian perspective, it's a higher state of existence, and people were against this, because they stated they won't be whom they are if they lose their desires now. I said we changed desires from children, we outgrew them, yet I wouldn't say we lost our identity or free-will, so I don't see how losing desire for sex or evil, will mean we lost either our identity or free-will. We've changed since we were kids, and I don't see why we can't change later. Yeah I take it as growth because we become something higher then before, our conscious develops in a higher state, much like we outgrew our child identity. I don't have an issue with that. I personally don't know what will happen after death, how much our personality will change over time, I don't know. Whether there we will live in another imperfect world where you can also die and there is imperfection, and struggle and problems, and you have to work, and so on and so forth, or whether there will be a perfect world I don't know, I don't know what will happen after death. But I'm saying I don't see how we lose free-will in the Christian concept.

[The Grand Nudger]

No, you attempted to circumvent a terrible, terrible problem with the idea of a christian heaven filled to the brim with free will by stating that we just wouldn't want to do a or b anymore ( a claim that's already been handled in this thread). Well I call bullshit (again). There will never be a moment that I won't enjoy two women going down on each other. That's just the amusing one, I could be a real dick and mention all of the other things that my mind will not and cannot change about that have to do directly with the curator of this little celestial museum you've imagined. Free will is not compatible with the christian god in the first place, let alone whatever hellhole he's built for all the helpful little werewolves that fancy themselves morally superior, or headed for some great "personal growth" in the afterlife. What afterlife, what "person" is growing?

As has been mentioned, if we accept their fairy tale as truth, there is already a certain group of somebodies who opted out for whatever reason (their side of the narrative isn't very well represented, surprise surprise). Invoking some "higher plane of existence" has exactly what to do with personal growth? While I'm at it, why should their particular view of morality represent personal growth in the first place? I think its degenerate behaviour unbefitting a human being to even insinuate that this narrative may give us some metric or means for personal growth. If I can change later, why then can't I change my mind back, in this higher plane of existence, to liking lesbian sex again? Think of that? Or did you we our hands because we thought this platitude would fly?

All of this, on top of the fact that there is no such place as heaven, no such thing as a soul, and no such god as christ.

(the amount of bullshit any god in any heaven would have to cut through for me to give him the okay to fucking mind meld me is almost impossible to comprehend, I don't want to be in your heaven, I don't want to be surrounded by the kind of people who presumably gain admittance, and I certainly don't want anything to do with the god who runs the shitty little theme park they're looking forward to. So, again, sanctimonious bullshit.)

edited to give the benefit of the doubt.

[Mystic]

There will never be a moment that I won't enjoy two women going down on each other.

How do you know how you will be after death? I thought as a kid, I will never stop loving lego, and would want to buy it as I grew older. It didn't happen as I thought. What makes you so sure you will always enjoy porn or sex? How do you know you won't become something different after death?

As has been mentioned, if we accept your fairy tale as truth, there is already a certain group of somebodies who opted out for whatever reason (their side of the narrative isn't very well represented, surprise surprise).

Opted out of what?

Invoking some "higher plane of existence" has exactly what to do with personal growth?

Well if we change as children to something different, we grew out of it, we changed, I see higher plane of existence as something we will change into, but we still remain whom we are. I don't see how changing means your not whom you are anymore. We aren't the same as we were when kids, but we are still the same person.

While I'm at it, why should your particular view of morality represent personal growth in the first place?

Well I don't have an issue with sex myself, but I thought were talking about the Christian perspective, if free-will was compatible with it.

I think its degenerate behaviour unbefitting a human being to even insinuate that this narrative may give us some metric or means for personal growth. If I can change later, why then can't I change my mind back, in this higher plane of existence, to liking lesbian sex again? Think of that?

Why can't you be sastified with the things you were sastified with as a baby? Why don't you enjoy kid toys anymore? Why can't you get yourself to enjoy those anymore? It's sort of the same question. You are of higher state, so those things don't please you anymore. You derive pleasure from different things. I don't see how this is not possible.

All of this, on top of the fact that there is no such place as heaven, no such thing as a soul, and no such god as christ.

Well the topic is not about that.

[The Grand Nudger]

How do you know how you will be after death? I thought as a kid, I will never stop loving lego, and would want to buy it as I grew older. It didn't happen as I thought. What makes you so sure you will always enjoy porn or sex? How do you know you want become something different after death?

End of the road. But, since you like this sort of question. How do you know I will become something different? What gives your claims to my personal growth or tendencies more weight than my own? I probably know myself a little better than you or any christian knows me, agreed?

Opted out of what?

Heaven.

Well if we change as children to something different, we grew out of it, we changed, I see higher plane of existence as something we will change into, but we still remain whom we are. I don't see how changing means your not whom you are anymore. We aren't the same as we were when kids, but we are still the same person.

What does any of this have to do with an afterlife, and why are we even assuming that the afterlife will be a continuation of our earthly lives, or that there is an afterlife to begin with? Wishful thinking and anthropomorphism.

Well I don't have an issue with sex myself, but I thought were talking about the Christian perspective, if free-will was compatible with it.

Indeed, and apparently it isn't, until someone can offer up an even remotely convincing argument (see how my standards have fallen, I don't even give a shit anymore if whatever someone is arguing for is true, I just want the argument to have some weight. That's what happens after seeing so many shitty arguments).

Why can't you be sastified with the things you were sastified with as a baby? Why don't you enjoy kid toys anymore? Why can't you get yourself to enjoy those anymore? It's sort of the same question. You are of higher state, so those things don't please you anymore. You derive pleasure from different things. I don't see how this is not possible.

Good question. Why can't people be satisfied with the things they have or have had. Why do we invent a "better life" for ourselves after death? Whether or not I like lego sets has nothing to do with a "higher state". Case in point, lego sets are flat out awesome, and I'll be using my son as an excuse to purchase even more of them. You're fishing with ambiguous words to defend a poorly thought out and not so well defined concept.

(By the by, the sorts of toys that children enjoy, and why, and for how long they will enjoy them is pretty well understood, and it has nothing to do with "higher states of being" or anything at all that would translate to the afterlife, or any heaven)

Well the topic is not about that.

Oh no? Any time someone makes or defends a claim that is such obvious bullshit I'm going to let them finish imagining whatever gives them the warm fuzzies and say "That's all well and good, but is any of this factually accurate?" Otherwise we're having a discussion entirely in platitudes, which is frankly infuriating. Perhaps you've ignored the nagging possibility that this thread was intended as a device to expose the problems of the concept of free will and heaven, and how they relate to each other. In other words, a question that literally begs for people to offer up idiocy to be torn down.

But hey, again, I'm rolling with it so I'll ask you the question again. If I can change, when I get to heaven, can I change back? Can I start liking girl on girl porn again (and to use your analogy of children lets not forget the droves of adults who collect thousands of teddy bears in their senility)? What happens then? Do I get the boot like Lucifer? What good then was a heavenly reward, and a grueling earthly test if I was always going to fail in the long run, and I can never be assured of my spot singing praise to the great big ego in the clouds? Again, why does christian morality represent personal growth? People grow into serial killers too btw, why is this growth so uniderectional? Is everyone growing into something just like god wants them to be (IE, drones, all the same, same desires, same wishes, all of the same vices gone). Is this force that encourages growth in heaven irresistable or can I just decide never to grow up, like Peter Pan? Honestly if all you have to support or defend this claim is that you don't like lego bricks anymore...who cares, has nothing to do with the christian heaven? A concept that even the faithful seem to be abandoning. Hell, singing praise to him all day with your arms up wasn't good enough for GC, for example. Who instead wanted to manage a galaxy, and get buddy buddy with the bossman, maybe play rhythm to his lead.

"I don't like lego sets anymore therefore free will is compatible with heaven" Well I do, therefore it isn't. Everytime you invoke some aspect of your (or our) earthly lives as representative of the situation in heaven I'm going to dismiss it on the grounds that you are trying to impose something uniquely human and very much material on the cosmos and the immaterial. Before you ask "But how could I describe it then", that's the catch. Neither you, nor anyone else can describe a heaven without attempting to bait and switch the real world for the fairy world. How is it that we have so many descriptions of heaven then, argued for as though they were the honest truth? Because people have trouble passing up bullshit that makes them feel good, and gives them some sort of familiarity with something they have absolutely no knowledge of, or are completely terrified by. In the absence of an actual answer, almost anything will do, one of the many the wonders of the human mind.

[Mystic]

End of the road. But, since you like this sort of question. How do you know I will become something different? What gives your claims to my personal growth or tendencies more weight than my own? I probably know myself a little better than you or any christian knows me, agreed?

I don't know what you will be after death. I don't even know how will I be in ten years. From the Christian perspective, you and I will be in hell, and won't have transformed to a higher existence, rather we will be in pain for not having accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

This topic as I understand it, is discussing whether free-will is compatable with heaven from a christian perspective. As I said losing desire to do certain things like evil things, to me, doesn't mean you lost free-will. I already argued why, and haven't seen any counter point as of yet.

Heaven.

I don't understand what your on about there then. Confused.

What does any of this have to do with an afterlife, and why are we even assuming that the afterlife will be a continuation of our earthly lives, or that there is an afterlife to begin with? Wishful thinking and anthropomorphism.

Again, we are discussing the christian perspective, whehter free-will is comptabible with that. I discussed changing as kids to show losing desires as kids, doesn't mean we no longer the same person, and also that there is nothing wrong with changing and outgrowing desires. In Christian heaven, people are suppose to be in a higher state in which they take pleasure in spirituality more then other things.
Also I don't know for sure if their doctrine teaches there will be no sex in heaven, but I don't see how losing that desiring would mean we are no longer our whom we are or no longer have free-will. Again, we changed since we were tolders, and we are still the same person.

Indeed, and apparently it isn't, until someone can offer up an even remotely convincing argument (see how my standards have fallen, I don't even give a shit anymore if whatever someone is arguing for is true, I just want the argument to have some weight. That's what happens after seeing so many shitty arguments).

The bad argument I've seen is that if we don't have bad desires anymore we don't have free-will. Anyways, people here have a confirmation bias against religion, so any argument against a religious doctrine , they will be for, and any counter argument, no matter how logical, they will argue against. I think Salt made good arguments, and people didn't really refute anything she said.

Good question. Why can't people be satisfied with the things they have or have had. Why do we invent a "better life" for ourselves after death? Whether or not I like legos has nothing to do with a "higher state". Case in point, legos are flat out awesome. You're fishing with ambiguous words to defend a poorly thought out and not so well defined concept. By the by, the sorts of toys that children enjoy, and why, and for how long they will enjoy them is pretty well understood, and it has nothing to do with "higher states of being" or anything at all that would translate to the afterlife, or any heaven)

The point is if you stop liking certain things, it doesn't mean you lost your identity. It's the same with losing some earthly desires, it doesnt mean you lose your identity. From the Christian perspective, we will become ultra spiritual, so we will be different, and take pleasure more in glory of God and glorifying and pleasing him. This is not my perspective, I'm just saying I don't see how we either lose free-will or identity if we lose certain desires (like desire to do evil).

Oh no? Any time someone makes or defends a claim that is such obvious bullshit I'm going to let them finish imagining whatever gives them the warm fuzzies and say "That's all well and good, but is any of this factually accurate?" Otherwise we're having a discussion entirely in platitudes, which is frankly infuriating. Perhaps you've ignored the nagging possibility that this thread was intended as a device to expose the problems of the concept of free will and heaven, and how they relate to each other. In other words, a question that literally begs for people to offer up idiocy to be torn down.

Well no the topic is not about whether a heaven or soul exists, but it's about whether free-will is comptabible with a christian view of heaven. I don't see how it isn't. I don't see how anyone has shown it isn't.

[The Grand Nudger]

For fucks sake man...why are they "bad desires", you're arguing against a wall. How did these "bad desires" go away in the first place? If they were removed in some screen as you pass through the gates, yep, that's free will gone. If they simply vanish as a part of the dying process (that god set up, remember this, as the creator of all) then again, they were removed. If they were not, then you're going to find yourself in hell, what, five minutes after walking into heaven? What you've seen are people asking why their personalities would have to be altered to remain in heaven, not why they can't do bad things in heaven. Many of these posters reject the criteria that the faithful have set for good and evil. Why must the homosexual start liking women, or stop liking men. Why is that evil? If he must, how is it done? Sure, if you're already on the same page as god maybe you'll lose that last nagging thing that you couldn't deal with in life, maybe you always wanted to give up being a drunken wifebeater. But if you are someone like myself, who is condemned by the very act of being themselves without any justification beyond "godwillsit" then it is indeed going to take a forceful removal of my free will to allow me to remain in heaven. Or I'm just going to hell. Honestly I can't tell the difference between the two places anymore.

Assuming that "bad desires" will vanish (somehow) as a part of "personal growth" in "heaven" is garbage. You're just re-defining all of these things so that the argument can work. That means that it doesn't. How to best explain my frustration here? These things which you are referencing, are things that are directly tied to the material. We're not talking about the material though are we? Let's try to maintain that line, yes? I don't accept the "as above, so below" answer from a "christian viewpoint". That's sympathetic magic, not heaven, and not christianity. Even attempting to equivocate heaven (and what goes on there) as "personal growth" is playing fast and loose with the concept of heaven. Sounds more like self help aisle bullshit than than the revealed word. What you're doing here, essentially, is saying "I can imagine a heaven that does not contradict my definition of free will". Doesn't matter in the least. I don't think you've accurately represented either heaven, free will, or personal growth in this argument. But opinions are like assholes, so no worries there.

Also, there's still the nagging bit about me liking Lego sets (and teddy bears, toy tractors, cartoons, my mother, etc etc etc). Tell you what, since you don't like Lego sets anymore, utilize your free will and like them again, since it was in no way diminished, and free will apparently has something to do with whether or not one likes children's toys. -all credit goes to Cinjin.

Once the premise and assertions in the heaven argument have been fleshed out and are accetable, and once the premise and assertions in the free will argument are fleshed out and acceptable, then I'll have to deal with the argument on it's own terms, exactly as put. Until then, I get to question the whole bit don't I. So any argument about free will or heaven is going to find itself questioned from every angle, you don't get to dictate the terms of the engagement, and I wish you'd stop insinuating or suggesting that I should stop asking questions like "but does this exist, if it exists, is the picture we've been presented with accurate, why are the rules for this hypothetical place set up the way they are, how are dissenters handled, can you dissent?" etc, in addition to questioning whether or not the answer given actually explains anything about the subject in question or is just a platitude. Personal growth sounds fantastic, but the way you've decided to frame it makes the phrase pretty much meaningless (unless you actually meant to say conformity, rather than personal growth, or have used personal growth in place of conformity because it sounded softer) . All of these questions directly relate to whether or not there can be free will in heaven even if only in the hypothetical. The next time you say "That's not what we're talking about" I'm just going to assume you'd rather not answer because you don't have an answer, and I'll ask the same question again. I'm so fucking tired of hearing "that's not what we're talking about" with regards to christian apologetics.