Turkey's role in middle eastern politics

[kılıç_mehmet]

It was not irrelevant. You made a false claim that the first post after yours instigated your extreme reactions here. I pointed out that it was untrue. My post was benign.

Very much so. Especially for someone who knows very, very little.

You forgot about the horrors committed by the Ottomans.

I don't really know how it was relevant to the arab revolt or anything.
And then, 5th horsemen responded with a wikipedia link about the so-called armenian genocide. It was a blatant attempt.
And the first page was without no virtual debate on the genocide subject, when you posted the second wikipedia link about the so-called genocide in the third page. How benign are you? However, I don't really blame you.
It's now almost a knee jerk reaction, thanks to armenian propaganda.

Wow, those little guys must have been too rebellious. Fucking load of shit. I am appalled by my country's use of internment camps for the Japanese during WWII. That is the difference between you and I. I am not willing to compromise my morality to defend a nation.

I don't see any bullet wounds. Even Turkish historians accept the fact that an unknown number of armenians have died during the deporations through various hardships. But indeed, none of you actually know how bureaucratic the Ottomans actually were. They kept record of everything, and they also described very clearly in orders that the goal here was to deport them to somewhere where they could not hinder the Ottoman war effort. It's all there in the Ottoman archives. They're open for inspection.
Since we're on the debate, let me point out that Ottoman census gives clear numbers on the Armenian populace in Turkey.
It was about 1.5 million. The armenians claim that 1.5 million have died.
So how does it come that the armenians living in the western provinces were not deported at all?

Kilic, they have every right to want revenge. It is a natural feeling. It wasn't even 100 years ago. Your people slaughtered their people and "exiled" them to death camps. You find it laughable? How sick are you?

Camps? Where were those camps? All we have here is a "blue book" who was written by the british as a propaganda tool. The same british who have lured mussulman soldiers to gallipoli by telling them that the Turks have converted to christianity, and are tearing down the mosques all around the country. Similar accusations have been made against the Germans in WWI by the british, and the Germans asked that their name be cleared after their surrender, and the brits agreed.
Speaking of slaughter, you probably don't know Kazım Karabekir, so let me put it down for ye.
Her daughter quotes from his memoirs: He arrived at Erzurum, and he was so close that he could see the teeth of the people who were on the walls. He saw them smiling, however once he got closer and closer, he saw that there was something odd with these people. They did not move, and as he got a little bit more closer, he saw that the armenians had impaled the Turks on the walls, as a last act of saying "fuck you", and their faces were distorted from the pain of the process.
This is the people whom we had "slaughtered" for no good reason, no reason at all.
Many Turks from villages who were raided by Armenian Hajduks report similar events.

You really speak based on what you hear from "wikipedia" other sources who do not take the Turkish side into consideration, or simply diss them as being wrong. This is us who have gone through the whole thing, not you.

Yes, but you brought up how your country only hurts itself which is a gigantic load of fucking bullshit. It is okay to be proud of your country's triumphs, but crimes against humanity are nothing to be proud of. There is good and bad in everything. If the Greeks and Armenians declared war with Turkey after WWII, I would not have thought them out of line. Your country overstepped, big time. You were no worse than the Nazis. Your people not only slaughtered people of other ethnicities, but they destroyed countless artifacts, just like Hitler.

Was I the first person to Godwin this shit?

And I'm not proud of "crimes against humanity", since there are none to speak of in the first place. There were acts of self-defense, acts of vengeance, acts of desperation.
Greeks have already gotten over the fact that Istanbul is in our hands like for over 600 years, and our founded Atatürk has reinstated friendly relations with the Venizelos administration of Greece(Venizelos was a fervent supporter of the megali idea, the idea of "unified Greece") and we have received similar feedbacks from Greece even though the war was just over. However, armenians...Well, there comes a time when someone has to let go. Their fate was sealed the time when Turks entered anatolia. They haven't been a sovereign state in the region for years and years and still think that they have any kind of rights to own that place? Unfortunately, they do. And they spread their lies in desperation in order to desperately gain international support to have an invalid treaty(the treaty of Sevres) recognized.
If Greeks(fresh out of Nazi occupation) and Armenians(who were under soviet occupation at that time) declared war upon Turkey after WWII, they would have probably made fools out of themselves. However that's not the reason why they haven't done it. Greece already got over things, is knee deep in debts, and Armenia is a tiny country with no sea ports, and virtually no real income besides diaspora money(and is under Turkish&Azerbaijani blockade).
Yeah, good luck with that.

[The Grand Nudger]

So it's still all about everyone (including historians and wiki) trying to fuck over the great and powerful turkish people? Doubtful buddy. Somebody has worked you over big-time.

[Shell B]

Very much so. Especially for someone who knows very, very little.

Yes, my years of research on historic and current genocide on top of my professional experience writing about it for clients who obviously trust that I know much more than very little on the subject leave me with no experience whatsoever on the topic.

My first post did not instigate your conversation as you said it did. Re-read the thread. You made the claim that your reaction was due to my post, which was obviously a cop-out, easily refuted. If you are going to have a conversation that goes out of control, do not blame it on me when the entire conversation is recorded for everyone to see. Your biggest mistake was then replying to me pointing out the falsity of your claim with some roundabout insult on my intelligence.

I don't really know how it was relevant to the arab revolt or anything.
And then, 5th horsemen responded with a wikipedia link about the so-called armenian genocide. It was a blatant attempt.

I don't know if 5th linked it, but I know I did. It was not relevant until you made the claim that your country has only made self-harming mistakes, which is not true.

And the first page was without no virtual debate on the genocide subject, when you posted the second wikipedia link about the so-called genocide in the third page. How benign are you? However, I don't really blame you.
It's now almost a knee jerk reaction, thanks to armenian propaganda.

Ah, yes, it is so easy to fake mass deaths, mass graves and the testimony of your own countrymen. My first post was benign, which was what I said. You are now using a post after that to refute the claim that my first post was benign. You are seriously bad at following the timeline of conversations.

I don't see any bullet wounds. Even Turkish historians accept the fact that an unknown number of armenians have died during the deporations through various hardships.

Which falls under the stipulations for genocide. Hardships or bullet wounds, the willful killing remains. Besides, it wasn't the deportations that killed them.

But indeed, none of you actually know how bureaucratic the Ottomans actually were. They kept record of everything, and they also described very clearly in orders that the goal here was to deport them to somewhere where they could not hinder the Ottoman war effort. It's all there in the Ottoman archives. They're open for inspection.

Actually, I am quite aware of the records of the genocide. Most of the records were covered up, but what is left is sufficient to refute your claims. In fact, your country has had a policy of admitting to it and later backing down. Consistency would have helped, but you fucked yourselves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Cou...E2%80%9320

Since we're on the debate, let me point out that Ottoman census gives clear numbers on the Armenian populace in Turkey.
It was about 1.5 million. The armenians claim that 1.5 million have died.

The Armenians don't claim it alone, kilic.

Camps? Where were those camps?

In Turkey.

Similar accusations have been made against the Germans in WWI by the british, and the Germans asked that their name be cleared after their surrender, and the brits agreed.

There were camps during WWII in Germany.

Speaking of slaughter, you probably don't know Kazım Karabekir, so let me put it down for ye.
Her daughter quotes from his memoirs: He arrived at Erzurum, and he was so close that he could see the teeth of the people who were on the walls. He saw them smiling, however once he got closer and closer, he saw that there was something odd with these people. They did not move, and as he got a little bit more closer, he saw that the armenians had impaled the Turks on the walls, as a last act of saying "fuck you", and their faces were distorted from the pain of the process.
This is the people whom we had "slaughtered" for no good reason, no reason at all.

Oh, it was okay for your country. I see.

Many Turks from villages who were raided by Armenian Hajduks report similar events.

I'm not surprised. Did you hear me once say that no other country has ever done anything wrong? My point is that yours did. One killing does not excuse another, in most cases, especially when it comes to innocent children.

You really speak based on what you hear from "wikipedia" other sources who do not take the Turkish side into consideration, or simply diss them as being wrong. This is us who have gone through the whole thing, not you.

Oh, please. I link Wikipedia because I figure it is easy to read. That doesn't mean I have never done any other research. Furthermore, unless you are the Terminator, you did not live through any of this. You know as much about it as I do, except your sources are biased.

And I'm not proud of "crimes against humanity", since there are none to speak of in the first place. There were acts of self-defense, acts of vengeance, acts of desperation.

Suuure they were, kilic. Whatever helps you.

Greeks got over it, kilic? Yeah, I am sure they did. Just because they didn't react with the utter violence that your country would have doesn't mean they are "over it." By the way, admitting that they are "over" something is admitting that they were wronged. You are contradicting yourself.

[kılıç_mehmet]

So it's still all about everyone (including historians and wiki) trying to fuck over the great and powerful turkish people? Doubtful buddy. Somebody has worked you over big-time.

I think you have not read a single word that I've written down. I'm saying that Turkey is demanding that this subject be brough to study with historians from both sides attending the debate, and that Turkey be condemned in an international court if found guilty.
And there are many other historians who support the Turkish side in this debate, non-turkish ones.
And our Turkic brothers are ever supportive of us in this debate, as this issue was talked over in this years TÜRKPA conference in Astana, Kazakhstan.

[Shell B]

Turkey be condemned in an international court if found guilty.

They were. There was no need for historians, at the time. It wasn't history.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Yes, my years of research on historic and current genocide on top of my professional experience writing about it for clients who obviously trust that I know much more than very little on the subject leave me with no experience whatsoever on the topic.

My first post did not instigate your conversation as you said it did. Re-read the thread. You made the claim that your reaction was due to my post, which was obviously a cop-out, easily refuted. If you are going to have a conversation that goes out of control, do not blame it on me when the entire conversation is recorded for everyone to see. Your biggest mistake was then replying to me pointing out the falsity of your claim with some roundabout insult on my intelligence.

Your years of research...And you still know nothing.

I don't know if 5th linked it, but I know I did. It was not relevant until you made the claim that your country has only made self-harming mistakes, which is not true.

It certainly is true.
And I stand firmly by my word.

Ah, yes, it is so easy to fake mass deaths, mass graves and the testimony of your own countrymen. My first post was benign, which was what I said. You are now using a post after that to refute the claim that my first post was benign. You are seriously bad at following the timeline of conversations.

I never said that mass graves were non-existent. I already acknowledge armenian casaulties. However, these casaulties were not a product of a systematic extermination campaign.
The Ottoman archives, who would probably state a goal of extermination if that was really the case, did not state anything bordering that. Only that the armenians were to be deported as not to cause anymore trouble.
Since you say that your post was "benign", I'll believe you. Yet you probably won't believe my word when I tell you that it was you who brought the conversation out of the line with that first post of yours, speaking of "teh horrors" of the terrible Turk.

Which falls under the stipulations for genocide. Hardships or bullet wounds, the willful killing remains. Besides, it wasn't the deportations that killed them.

Oh, what was it? Gas chambers?

Actually, I am quite aware of the records of the genocide. Most of the records were covered up, but what is left is sufficient to refute your claims. In fact, your country has had a policy of admitting to it and later backing down. Consistency would have helped, but you fucked yourselves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Cou...E2%80%9320

Admitting? Really. In a justice system that was ruled by the allied powers?
And it's really funny how the allied powers actually released men that were supposedly responsible for such crimes against humanity in the first place.

The Armenians don't claim it alone, kilic.

However I've heard from other sources that only claim simply one million.
The numbers are ever changing.

In Turkey.

But where? The camps in Germany stand as they did during WWII.
In Turkey, yes. Correct. Names? Occupants? Commanding officers? Number of deaths? Records?

Where?

There were camps during WWII in Germany.

I was talking about WWI. Allied powers spread propaganda that was allegedly committed by the Germans aswell. They took it back later on.

Oh, it was okay for your country. I see.

I'm simply saying that they do not have my sympathy. They have brought this upon themselves.

I'm not surprised. Did you hear me once say that no other country has ever done anything wrong? My point is that yours did. One killing does not excuse another, in most cases, especially when it comes to innocent children.

As I said, they had it coming.

Oh, please. I link Wikipedia because I figure it is easy to read. That doesn't mean I have never done any other research. Furthermore, unless you are the Terminator, you did not live through any of this. You know as much about it as I do, except your sources are biased.

I did not, however, I have relatives that did. My maternal grandmother's grandfather was a soldier who had seen both WWI and the Turkish war for independence. He had witnessed some of the armenian atrocities that were committed against the mussulmans. The Turks and other mussulmans celebrated when they saw the armenians were shipped to Syria, whereas they lived practically side by side until the troubles.
And it's really astonishing how you claim my sources to be biased, when there is not even a single account made by any armenian or allied sources that relate to the deaths caused by armenian gangs that were provided with weapons from the Russians.

Suuure they were, kilic. Whatever helps you.

Greeks got over it, kilic? Yeah, I am sure they did. Just because they didn't react with the utter violence that your country would have doesn't mean they are "over it." By the way, admitting that they are "over" something is admitting that they were wronged. You are contradicting yourself.

Wronged?
We have wronged no one. Greeks already got their own country.
They got greedy, tried to get more lands for themselves, but fell into the death trap that is Anatolia, just like the crusaders in the first crusade. And they packed their stuff, and left. What exactly is there to ponder?
And they even executed the generals that were responsible for the " asia minor catastrophe" as the Greeks like to call it, for it was a catastrophe from a Greek point of view, but a major victory from our point.
Getting over certain things, like military losses, is not like saying they were wronged. I personally do not think that we have wronged anybody. If any greek feels wronged for the glorious conquest of Constantinople, they probably should look for the answer in themselves, where exactly did we go wrong? And there were many places where the Byzantines failed, and that caused their annexation to a much greater power. That's how the world worked back then. However, some still think that they can get it back or something. Those are the really bydlo ones, btw. Hurr durr constantinople, turkish genocide best day of my life kind of bydlo.
A few shots of ouzo, and they'll start talking about how Turks are their best friends or something.

Turkey be condemned in an international court if found guilty.

They were. There was no need for historians, at the time. It wasn't history.

Oh? And where is the document that proves this?
If they were really so keen on punishing us for some so-called genocide, they wouldn't have thrown away the treaty of Sevres. Let's see them resurrect it, I'm waiting for it. But the truth is, nobody actually cares about the armos and their shit, they just do it to get votes.
Obama too did it for the votez, however backed the fuck down later.
After this issue is cleared out for good, we're going to sue the countries that have accepted this so-called genocide for the amount that nullifies out own national debts.
Then it's time to liberate Karabagh for good.

[The Grand Nudger]

Think I'm done wasting my time with this. You were raised a bigot, presumably by bigots, nothing surprises me coming out of that. Whatever you have to say about Turkish politics, or the middle east, through your ethnocentric lens, means absolutely nothing to me. I'm glad that you're so frustrated with the direction your country is headed, that's starting to sound like an indicator that all is well with Turkey.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Think I'm done wasting my time with this. You were raised a bigot, presumably by bigots, nothing surprises me coming out of that.

Hopefully you can say the same for the armenians aswell, who teach their kids to hate Turks. You might be surprised, but I didn't even knew who the armenians were when I was a kid, and until I hit 16 and saw this shit on TV for the first time..
We weren't even taught this in our history books, so that we don't bear any kind of ill-will towards any of our neighbors.
I dug out the truth on my own.

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, unsurprising that whatever school you attended decided to leave genocide out of the coursework. You say you weren't taught any of this so that you wouldn't bear any ill will, but there's a more likely explanation as to why the perpetrators of genocide would like to forget that it ever happened. It's called shame. But "the armos" deserved it anyway, so who cares? It's stuff like this Mehmet, this sort of ideology, that would make a nation the "ass" of anywhere, not military defeats in antiquity or recent history.

[kılıç_mehmet]

LOL, unsurprising that whatever school you attended decided to leave genocide out of the coursework. You say you weren't taught any of this so that you wouldn't bear any ill will, but there's a more likely explanation as to why the perpetrators of genocide would like to forget that it ever happened. It's called shame.

Perpetrators?
They(the supposed "perpetrators") weren't even involved in the foundation of the Republic of Turkey, nor in it's educational system. In fact, the foremost contributors in the Turkish educational system in terms of language and history have been Tatars like myself from Russia(Imperialist&Bolshevik).