Job

[Duty]

Regarding Job, I'm reminded of the Jewish saying, "We are God's chosen.  Next time, God, please choose someone else."

I'm curious what the limits of the devil are.  In Job, he's able to coerce Job through loss, suffering, and torment.  Typically Satan is portrayed as a deceiver, a tempter who achieves his aims by tricking us into doing the bad thing, much as a con man uses our innate desires for gain to persuade us to embark upon unwise courses of action.  So the question to my mind is, how much of Satan's effectiveness depends upon our complicity?

I've heard that Satan is simply hebrew for "adversary," and that the Christian perception of Satan is much different from the Jewish one.

I was told by a colleague at work the other day that I am an "angel." A moment later I replied: "Satan was an angel." True story #gold star.

[h311inac311]

A man once said, "It appears to me that the discussion surrounding the story of Job is one where those who couldn't endure even a fraction of what Job endured bring against God an accusation which the victim would never bring. That God is evil for proving to the world that yes, at one point in history there was a man who was willing to endure more unjust suffering than any other but without puting his creator on trial. The atheist thinks himself to be above Job as he laments every evil that is within the world. For the atheist there is one simple premis that from which all conclusions are inevitably drawn, "God isn't real, but if he was he would be evil." This simple premis will never have to change for any reason because an atheist is sovern within the bounds of his own mind. They are free to bring any accusation they want against God but do so without Job's blessing.

Job is the victim here, his faith is what is being unfairly tested and put on trial. The easiest conclusion that one could draw from such a story is that God is evil and that Job's wife was right to say, "curse God and die." Despite the fact that this is obviously the first conclusion that anyone would draw from a weighty story like this one; we have to realize that perhapse for Job, and Job alone, God was never once counted as evil. Job cursed himself, his life and all that he ever had for all it did was build him up so that he could be knocked down. When Job tore his robe and shaved his head he took an action that the vast majority of people would never do, he continued to worship and acknowledge God as good. He already passed the devil's test with flying colors but God wasn't done with him yet. Job's suffering would continue for quite some time after this and all Job would ever demand was an answer, not a trial, not revenge but a mere explanation as to why God would choose to do such an unjust and evil thing to his most faithful servant.

Because of this great faith Job became the absolute antithisis of what a modern day atheist reprisents. The atheist says there is no God but also that no rational man can observe the evils of the world surrounding them and come to the conclusion that God is good. In this way Job violates his own rational mind. Job's faith is irrational, just as God's answer is irrational. God simply tells Job that he is his creator, not the other way round. God's thoughts are above ours, God's ways are often unknowable to us. Our task is obeying his commandments without putting the one who wrote those commandments on trial. The task of a faithful man can be summarised as this. We don't know why God allows more suffering than our hearts can bear, but he does and when he does the atheist is quick to pull out his gavel and pronounce "guilty."

If God rewards his followers then the atheist will say, "look at these people, they only do the right thing because their God rewards them, but take away the reward and what will they have left?" And if God does stop protecting and rewarding his followers the atheist will say, "see, what point is there in obeying such a non-existent God? What has he done for you? Did he fix your car when it was broken? No, a mechanic did that. Did he heal you when you were sick? No, a doctor did that. See, God isn't real because he hasn't provided you with any reason to believe in him." So God is dammned if he does and dammned if he does not help his flock. If God allows an unrightous man to become wealthy they will say, "How can God suffer us to pay taxes to such an evil person? Where is this fictitious being which pronounces himself as both good and powerful? Is he less powerful than Caesar? Is he not able to conquer Nero? Pathetic! no God can be powerful and good if he does not knock down these oppressive powers." But when God does inevitably make his stand against the rulers of this world they will say, "Took him long enough," or they will say, "why was God so harsh with Caesar? was he really that poor of a ruler that he deserved to be brought down with such force?"

If God rewards one and punishes another the atheist will say God has made the wrong choice. Because God is either not existant or evil and everything that happens to them or around them in this world will be interpreted through that lense. Weather the rewards or punishments be temporary or eternal, weather these divine verdicts be small or great, they are either too small, too great, to temporary or too long lasting to not count as an inditement against their creator's character.                                                                                                    
     And if they see an old man riding on a donkey as he is being led by a young boy then they will say, "how can that old man suffer his grandson to walk while he rides upon that donkey?""

[Angrboda]

The atheist thinks himself to be above Job as he laments every evil that is within the world.

The atheist is making a judgment of God, not of Job.

[Mister Agenda]

If God rewards one and punishes another the atheist will say God has made the wrong choice. Because God is either not existant or evil and everything that happens to them or around them in this world will be interpreted through that lense. Weather the rewards or punishments be temporary or eternal, weather these divine verdicts be small or great, they are either too small, too great, to temporary or too long lasting to not count as an inditement against their creator's character.                                                                              

If God rewarded one and punished another with any kind of pattern that showed favor to a particular religion, that would pretty much end atheism. Anyone who said God was unfair would be a maltheist, not an atheist, and there probably wouldn't be too many of those either, given that you could avoid some of the unfairness by being a devout follower of the one true religion.

[Nay_Sayer]

Based on his/her/it's posts, I think @h311inac311 is a POE having a bit of fun with us.

I'm not falling for it any more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

Use it as an exercise in sloppy apologetics

[The Grand Nudger]

Bit messy, bit long, but, sure...the general thrust is certainly true of some people. That everything some persons religion (or their interpretation of their religion) has to say on a subject is unacceptable to someone else - and maybe even from every angle they can think of. That, in short, their god just can't get right. I imagine it's frustrating, but there's not much to be done about it.

True believers are familiar with this apprehension themselves, whenever they think of other peoples gods, other peoples religions. Just as it's unsurprising to find two true believers fundamentally disagreeing with each other, you can find atheists fundamentally disagreeing with true believers. It's not even an issue of whether or not a god exists, at that point.

[The Architect Of Fate]

A man once said, "It appears to me that the discussion surrounding the story of Job is one where those who couldn't endure even a fraction of what Job endured bring against God an accusation which the victim would never bring. That God is evil for proving to the world that yes, at one point in history there was a man who was willing to endure more unjust suffering than any other but without puting his creator on trial. The atheist thinks himself to be above Job as he laments every evil that is within the world. For the atheist there is one simple premis that from which all conclusions are inevitably drawn, "God isn't real, but if he was he would be evil." This simple premis will never have to change for any reason because an atheist is sovern within the bounds of his own mind. They are free to bring any accusation they want against God but do so without Job's blessing.

Ah yes, it's not that story makes no sense and depicts a deplorable being. It's those wicked atheists and evil minds. I'm sure that's a comforting myth for you. It's not that you wrong it's that your opposition is irrational. Said every wrong person ever

Job is the victim here, his faith is what is being unfairly tested and put on trial. The easiest conclusion that one could draw from such a story is that God is evil and that Job's wife was right to say, "curse God and die." Despite the fact that this is obviously the first conclusion that anyone would draw from a weighty story like this one; we have to realize that perhapse for Job, and Job alone, God was never once counted as evil. Job cursed himself, his life and all that he ever had for all it did was build him up so that he could be knocked down. When Job tore his robe and shaved his head he took an action that the vast majority of people would never do, he continued to worship and acknowledge God as good. He already passed the devil's test with flying colors but God wasn't done with him yet. Job's suffering would continue for quite some time after this and all Job would ever demand was an answer, not a trial, not revenge but a mere explanation as to why God would choose to do such an unjust and evil thing to his most faithful servant.

Yeah, this sounds like how an abuse victim apologizes for their abuser.

Because of this great faith Job became the absolute antithisis of what a modern day atheist reprisents. The atheist says there is no God but also that no rational man can observe the evils of the world surrounding them and come to the conclusion that God is good. In this way Job violates his own rational mind. Job's faith is irrational, just as God's answer is irrational. God simply tells Job that he is his creator, not the other way round. God's thoughts are above ours, God's ways are often unknowable to us. Our task is obeying his commandments without putting the one who wrote those commandments on trial. The task of a faithful man can be summarised as this. We don't know why God allows more suffering than our hearts can bear, but he does and when he does the atheist is quick to pull out his gavel and pronounce "guilty."

Ah good you acknowledge Job is being irrational Stockholm syndrome tends to have that effect

If God rewards his followers then the atheist will say, "look at these people, they only do the right thing because their God rewards them, but take away the reward and what will they have left?" And if God does stop protecting and rewarding his followers the atheist will say, "see, what point is there in obeying such a non-existent God? What has he done for you? Did he fix your car when it was broken? No, a mechanic did that. Did he heal you when you were sick? No, a doctor did that. See, God isn't real because he hasn't provided you with any reason to believe in him." So God is dammned if he does and dammned if he does not help his flock. If God allows an unrightous man to become wealthy they will say, "How can God suffer us to pay taxes to such an evil person? Where is this fictitious being which pronounces himself as both good and powerful? Is he less powerful than Caesar? Is he not able to conquer Nero? Pathetic! no God can be powerful and good if he does not knock down these oppressive powers." But when God does inevitably make his stand against the rulers of this world they will say, "Took him long enough," or they will say, "why was God so harsh with Caesar? was he really that poor of a ruler that he deserved to be brought down with such force?"

Yes yes it's not that theology makes no sense It's those wicked atheists and evil minds. I'm sure that's a comforting myth for you. It's not that you wrong it's that your opposition is irrational. Said every wrong person ever 

If God rewards one and punishes another the atheist will say God has made the wrong choice. Because God is either not existant or evil and everything that happens to them or around them in this world will be interpreted through that lense. Weather the rewards or punishments be temporary or eternal, weather these divine verdicts be small or great, they are either too small, too great, to temporary or too long lasting to not count as an inditement against their creator's character.                                                                                                    
     And if they see an old man riding on a donkey as he is being led by a young boy then they will say, "how can that old man suffer his grandson to walk while he rides upon that donkey?""

Yes yes, it's not that theology makes no sense It's those wicked atheists and evil minds. I'm sure that's a comforting myth for you. It's not that you wrong it's that your opposition is irrational. Said every wrong person ever 

So your whole rant is you playing mind reader and putting up a strawman to knock down rather than actually engage in any actual arguments. 

[The Grand Nudger]

The atheist thinks himself to be above Job as he laments every evil that is within the world.

The atheist is making a judgment of God, not of Job.

People are extremely likely to do or say anything - and employ the maximum of servility, when they're being tortured.   Why blame them for it..it's the fucker waterboarding him that concerns me..that and all his sycophantic followers never more than a hairs width away from depraved indifference, at least - to hear them tell it.

[arewethereyet]

If - big if - the god of the Bible is a real thing...I don't like him much.

And many stories in the Bible are the things that children's nightmares are made of. So, yeah, it sucks as a book.

Now tell us why cats haven't pushed everything off the edge of the flat earth.

[Paleophyte]

I would also like to get your guys views on the story of Job specifically.

I wonder how Job's family felt about having the life crushed out of them just to show Satan how devout Job really was. Was the moral of the story "Don't be the family of the most devout man in town unless you're down with death and dismemberment" or "Satan will only be allowed to use you and yours as a cock holster for a little while as long as you keep singing my praises the whole time"?