[Serious] That Trans Thread

[The Architect Of Fate]

So, what are the objections you have to this meta-study (Vaush-approved, mind you) that failed to find much of a material difference between trans female athletes and cis female athletes once the effects of hormones are factored in?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/

Hey, Rye Rye apparently IA thinks he owned you on vaccines. I wonder if anyone else remembers it that way.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Moderator Notice
As has been correctly pointed out by IA, this is a Serious thread, in which insults of any kind are not allowed. The insults (on both sides) stop NOW.

Boru

[Rev. Rye]

So, what are the objections you have to this meta-study (Vaush-approved, mind you) that failed to find much of a material difference between trans female athletes and cis female athletes once the effects of hormones are factored in?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/

It's BS, and I disagree with Vaush on most things, so it doesn't mean anything to me that he approved it. Lung capacity, height, bone structure, hand size, and on and on. Those who try to make the argument that hormone levels are all that matter are fooling themselves.

And all of that's written in stone? And you're sure that the hormones don't have the side effect of limiting any of those factors, or even others?

[The Architect Of Fate]

It's BS, and I disagree with Vaush on most things, so it doesn't mean anything to me that he approved it. Lung capacity, height, bone structure, hand size, and on and on. Those who try to make the argument that hormone levels are all that matter are fooling themselves.

And all of that's written in stone? And you're sure that the hormones don't have the side effect of limiting any of those factors, or even others?

Don't you know? IA knows all and can reject your studies because he imagines he defeated you on vaccines .....

[Irreligious Atheist]

It's BS, and I disagree with Vaush on most things, so it doesn't mean anything to me that he approved it. Lung capacity, height, bone structure, hand size, and on and on. Those who try to make the argument that hormone levels are all that matter are fooling themselves.

And all of that's written in stone? And you're sure that the hormones don't have the side effect of limiting any of those factors, or even others?

To an extent, hormones have an effect on limiting some things if taken early enough, but, science and medicine, at this point in 2022, can not perfectly turn a bio male into a bio female. We are just not at that point yet, sadly, for trans people. The amount of advantage really depends on the sport I guess.

Of course there are plenty of cis women athletes who are better than plenty of trans women athletes. This is true. This is usually what people will point out to support trans women in bio womens' sports. Many of those trans women who are not that great might not even have those spots that they have though, if they were cis women. Even if they're pretty mediocre now as trans athletes, they'd likely be even worse if they were cis. Like the youtuber Destiny/ Steven, who I'm sure you know, points out, would it be ok for him to go and play on a team against 10 year olds just because there are 10 year olds in the world better than him at whatever sport it is? No, Destiny playing against 10 year olds sounds ridiculous whether there are 10 year olds better than him or not. The existence of mediocre trans women in sports does not make up for the inevitability of Lia Thomas' coming along.

Like Destiny likes to point out, why do women's sports exist in the first place? It's because the female sex was incapable of competing against the male sex, so therefore we gave them their own thing, based on their sex. It's always been about sex. The creation of it was about sex. Nothing about the mind or how people choose to identify. Such a thing is a completely irrelevant point. It's about sex. Nothing else. And, as far as the data goes, we're still pretty early on in this thing, and the number of people who identify as trans is starting to multiply exponentially as it becomes more accepted and visible in society, which I think is absolutely a good thing btw, and fantastic that people are embracing their true selves. It really is sad that some people here get the impression that I hate trans people and want them genocided just because I think women's sports exist for a reason and we shouldn't abandon that reason and throw it to the wayside. And when activists want biologists like Richard Dawkins cancelled and scrubbed from the internet for asking questions on twitter about gender, if this is considered progress for the world, then no, I don't want that type of progress.

[The Architect Of Fate]

A long delusional rant 

[Irreligious Atheist]

And all of that's written in stone? And you're sure that the hormones don't have the side effect of limiting any of those factors, or even others?

Don't you know? IA knows all and can reject your studies because he imagines he defeated you on vaccines .....

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CDC confirms natural immunity better than vaccines.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/m...contribAff

Fauci and other doctors and scientists likely had strong suspicions from the start that natural immunity was better than vaccination, but BS'd it up to try to get everyone to take the vax.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/h6O1TLf5JlQ

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Let's try to get this back on topic now that we've got that out of the way.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Lol 

1. The CDC study does not demonstrate your claim that natural immunity is better than vaccination anymore than the last time you claimed it did.

https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/...18babd4a77

2. An out-of-context Cspan clip are you for fucking real ?.....

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fact...492795002/

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/v...-than-flu/

https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.32934KM

Now that we have that out of the way please continue showing you don't know what the hell you're talking about 

[Rev. Rye]

For the record:

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I looked through the COVID-19 conspiracy threat to see what study you posted made me backtrack. I failed to figure out what you were talking about. And now that you've actually explained what the fuck you were talking about, I looked at the damn study and realised that it wasn't quite saying what you claimed it was. While an unvaccinated person is likely to fare better with their second case of COVID than a vaccinated person will on their first, the study still affirmed that someone who was both vaccinated and had a previous case will still do better than an unvaccinated person on their second case. And when the unvaccinated and vaccinated have their first case, the latter far and away does better. And I pointed this out multiple times (search the thread for "belt and braces" to see me do this), and you persisted in your misunderstanding of the case.

To recap: Vaccinated with Prior Case (Belt and Braces)>Unvaccinated with prior case>Vaccinated Without Prior Case>Unvaccinated without a prior case.

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And to get back to the subject at hand: Yes, I am fully aware that all the gender reassignment treatments we have can't transform a biological male into a perfect facsimile of a biological female. Literally nobody's arguing that this is the case. And sometimes there's going to be trans outliers who routinely kick asses of cis women, and seeing Fallon Fox go all Butch Coolidge on Tamika Brents is a good example of this. But, that said, the important thing is to figure out: are these examples the norm or are they just outliers? And, frankly, once a big meta-study on the subject looks at the subject and concludes "As long as they take their hormones (which tend to have side effects that actually negate many of the physical advantages they'd have in a vacuum, and hobble a few others "Harrison Bergeron"-style) and their T-blockers, their performance, is, on average, about par," there's a good reason sports leagues are starting to allow trans women to perform in women's sports. And it's not because of trans people bullying them into submission; it's because, once they keep their testosterone down, they tend to actually perform on par with cis female atheletes.

[Irreligious Atheist]

For the record:

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I looked through the COVID-19 conspiracy threat to see what study you posted made me backtrack. I failed to figure out what you were talking about. And now that you've actually explained what the fuck you were talking about, I looked at the damn study and realised that it wasn't quite saying what you claimed it was. While an unvaccinated person is likely to fare better with their second case of COVID than a vaccinated person will on their first, the study still affirmed that someone who was both vaccinated and had a previous case will still do better than an unvaccinated person on their second case. And when the unvaccinated and vaccinated have their first case, the latter far and away does better. And I pointed this out multiple times (search the thread for "belt and braces" to see me do this), and you persisted in your misunderstanding of the case.

To recap: Vaccinated with Prior Case (Belt and Braces)>Unvaccinated with prior case>Vaccinated Without Prior Case>Unvaccinated without a prior case.

---

And to get back to the subject at hand: Yes, I am fully aware that all the gender reassignment treatments we have can't transform a biological male into a perfect facsimile of a biological female. Literally nobody's arguing that this is the case. And sometimes there's going to be trans outliers who routinely kick asses of cis women, and seeing Fallon Fox go all Butch Coolidge on Tamika Brents is a good example of this. But, that said, the important thing is to figure out: are these examples the norm or are they just outliers? And, frankly, once a big meta-study on the subject looks at the subject and concludes "As long as they take their hormones (which tend to have side effects that actually negate many of the physical advantages they'd have in a vacuum, and hobble a few others "Harrison Bergeron"-style) and their T-blockers, their performance, is, on average, about par," there's a good reason sports leagues are starting to allow trans women to perform in women's sports. And it's not because of trans people bullying them into submission; it's because, once they keep their testosterone down, they tend to actually perform on par with cis female atheletes.

Yes, everything you just posted about natural immunity vs vaccination is exactly what I posted. My exact position, so we are in agreement. As you just admitted, unvaccinated with a prior case gives you better protection going forward than vaccination with no prior case. That was my entire point.

And back on topic, look at Lia Thomas competing on the men's team vs competing on the women's team. Was Lia Thomas pretty much the best in the world, and breaking records left and right when she was on the men's team? Nope. She did it competing against women though. If hormones magically make you pretty much indistinguishable from the opposite sex, then shouldn't Lia Thomas rank similarly in the women's division now as where she ranked in the men's division? Notice how things don't quite translate that way, and notice how transitioning can turn you into pretty much the best in the world, just like that. Funny how that works out when there's supposedly no real benefit according to the study you provided me. People like Sungala are simply kidding themselves when they say that science can't say anything about this one way or another. Why is Lia Thomas far more successful competing against women? There has to be a reason, and that reason is clearly biology. The science is not still up in the air on this issue. When it comes to the biological reality of the situation, things couldn't really be any more obvious. If you aren't confident that Lia Thomas would have been pretty much the best men's swimmer in the country at her age if she never transitioned and was still a man, then you can't say that there is no advantage to transitioning. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Lia Thomas would probably not have been the best in the country competing against men, so therefore, there is clearly a biological advantage here and it really is not disputable at all. And for all the mediocre trans women athletes you can point out, most of them probably wouldn't be in a sports league period if not for transitioning, so there's that.