Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
(December 12, 2011 at 10:03 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote:
(December 12, 2011 at 8:48 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:
(December 12, 2011 at 8:27 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote:
(December 12, 2011 at 7:58 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:
(December 12, 2011 at 7:28 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: Um, in the video you posted, the cops were just standing there, so what does the action of other cops in other states have to do with anything? Yeah, they were just doing their jobs.
Well, for one we are a nation, not just a collective of states, but a nation.
By this time there had already been several midnight raids on the occupy movement in THIS particular movement shown in the video, the police stealing their tents and possessions and heating equipment. This is what the man was talking about "promise that, promise this... I dont give a fuck because you cant beat me bitch".
Lets keep this in context.
Hmm, well, I didn't see any of that in the video, but even assuming that happened, how does it make sense to act demon possesed and crazy? I just don't get it. Oh, well man, I wasn't there so maybe it would have made sense "in context." *shrug*
Oh no..please dont take it as me trying to put you down. Context explains this video.
the occupy movement on wallstreet had already been infiltrated several times by the police when this video was recorded, many of them were pissed and talking smack to the cops for it. Midnight raids on an unarmed group to steal their supplies? You carry guns?! I have no weapons! I have my fists, which makes me a beast, and makes you a pussy, pussy, pussy, pussy.
do you understand it now?
Acting demon possessed, or insane is a tactic to instill fear in those who are more powerful than you. Talking nonsense can throw people off, make them hesitate, make them think twice.
I hope this helps explain.
The man in this video...he KNOWS he is alive.
I wish I had half the guts this man showed unarmed in front of armed tyranny.
I don't think you are putting me down.
This isn't about my failure to understand. I think I understand completely enough, I just dissagree with you. I don't think his actions were anything but an act of lunacy and I'm pretty sure they accomplish nothing. I have seen the data and understand that wealth is unevenly distributed, I just don't see how taking out my frustration on civil servents is going to right any wrongs or make any significant changes. Your claim that the cops have done bad things does nothing to support the claim that acting like a looney is warranted.
What I'm doing to bring about change in the nation is pulling my assets out of BofA and USbank and moving them into my local credit union. Not as sexy and punk-rock as calling people pussy and nigger, but at least my actions will send the appropriate message.
Good job. I stand 100% behind credit unions as an alternative to other banks.
Personally, I prefer the breaking down of banks and capitalism, but in the meantime it is a good choice.
(December 12, 2011 at 11:12 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: I prefer the breaking down of banks and capitalism...
Hmm, I've heard this sentiment many times. My question would be, what method would you suggest we use to allocate resources and wealth? What society would we have to settle matters of law and public policy?
December 13, 2011 at 7:28 am (This post was last modified: December 13, 2011 at 7:57 am by The Profit Ezekiel.)
Quote:reverendjeremiah Wrote:<br />
I prefer the breaking down of banks and capitalism...
<br />
<br />
Hmm, I've heard this sentiment many times. My question would be, what method would you suggest we use to allocate resources and wealth? What society would we have to settle matters of law and public policy?<br />
<br />
The process of reallocating wealth and resources through entitlement programs is broken. This system needs to be scrapped and reset. SSI and Disability benefits being paid out to the truly sick and needy I support, but with any system there are flaws that can be taken advantage of. Stricter guidelines for entitlements, HARSH penalties for fraud, and ongoing reviews of cases for people that are not permanentally disabled. Just saw an interview with JZ of all people, and he hit it on the head. http://http://www.jayznews.com/2011/12/1...ll-street/
Pay more in taxes? Sure! Get me the Feds balance sheet and let me see where you're sticking my 18% currently, and if I approve, I'll give you more. Wish it worked like that. But when you loose your right to govern yourself (super pacs and the buying of our political system), the people that you'd like to see in charge will never get elected because of the corporate takeover. I would love to say that the breakdown of capitalism is needed, but if that happened, life as we know it would end. Capitalism needs to be fed so our economy can grow, if it dies, which it is bound to do eventually, the economy will die with it. You thought 12% unemployment was bad? Imagine 60%, with a completely worthless US dollar, and a bankrupt federal and state government. No UE benefits, no SSI, no food stamps, Medicare/Medicade, no way for you to make money, feed your kids, provide for your elderly parents. We as a species will revert to the animals we are. Humanity is nothing but a thin varnish over the top of our baser instincts. I for one hope capitalism has another good 70 years left to it so I won't have to deal with the fallout. One of the main reasons my wife and I choose not to have children.
*steps down from his soapbox*
Sorry, get a little wound up sometimes. And a little bored at work in the middle of the night
(December 12, 2011 at 11:26 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote:
(December 12, 2011 at 11:12 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: I prefer the breaking down of banks and capitalism...
Hmm, I've heard this sentiment many times. My question would be, what method would you suggest we use to allocate resources and wealth? What society would we have to settle matters of law and public policy?
There are several alternatives to using money and capitalism. One is the obvious barter system. The barter system is THE truest free market known to mankind (unlike what those libertarians go on about) and it is immune to being leeched upon by paper pushers and percentage raisers. This for that is the only free market
Then you have labor trade vouchers. "3 bushels of corn or three hours electrical work." Again, a type of "currency" that fat cat corporate leeches cannot attach themselves to.
Money, on the other hand, makes it easy for the unproductive types of society to climb very high up the ladder. Paper shufflers, percentage raisers, number crunchers, "investors", ALL worthless to society, ALL backstabbing asswads, and ALL think they deserve to be the richest asshole in the country. Money makes it easy for the do-nothings to climb to the top. Money is easy to steal, and corrupts most people that come across it.
Law and public policy will be directly handled by the citizens themselves. Not some political figures and the bankers who tell them what to do like we have now. In a syndicate, most laws will deal with trade code and safety, and less laws about society. Property will be common ownership and the labors of your work will be your capital (not the money you stole from fucking people over with paperwork)
I know, I know...the supposed "real capitalists" (right libertarians and anarcho-capitalists) are the first to jump up in defense of money or the gold standard. They dream of sitting behind a desk pushing paperwork and controlling all of the currency and land. Wage slavery is what they stand for.
I am a proponent of a fiat money system. It has proven to be more reacitve to changes in the market whereas the gold standard runs the risk of providing a way for other countries to mine out our gold by manipulating the market. Barter is a totally failed system of wealth storage because there is no good way to measure the utility between goods and services. Ideally you could imagine exchanges that were equitable for all parties in volved, but hey, when people are involved there will always be motivation to maximize the benifit to self. It is just as easy to imagine a fiat currency that was controlled such that people maintained their buying power and there wasn't a constant vacuum at the top 1% that kept pulling money toward it, but that is also just a dream.
I feel that the system we have now is not great but it happens to be better than the ones that came before.
I would like to see the lower two rungs on maslow's hierarchy of needs handled publicly (Well, except for the sex part, that shouldn't even be part of the lowest rung in my opinion) so that anybody that didn't want to work could do so and not die. In my vision the default existence for people 18 and over would be a government provided place to live, medical, and a food card. Yes, even for lazy people and dumb people. I am Atlas and I plan to shoulder the burden of those less motivated, or capable than me. The idea is that instead of a pissed off populace working because they have too, there would be a populace enabled to bargain with companies to obtain a fair wage and if they didn't like it they could leave without the fear of losing their ability to live.
Sorry rev, I often find your opinions insightful, but going back to the barter system? Are you insane? The reason we invented "money" in the first place was to save on the long chains of bartering that often emerge as a result.
For instance, if I have "3 bushels of corn" as you put it, and want to get a haircut, I have to either (a) find a hairdresser willing to exchange a haircut for my 3 bushels of corn, or (b) have to exchange my corn for something that a hairdresser wants. This "exchanging" might not be that simple; I might find a hairdresser who wants a loaf of bread, but the baker doesn't want my corn, and instead wants a bunch of flowers...etc, etc, etc.
The whole purpose of money was to save time; to assign each item a specific value in monetary terms, and use money as a method of bartering instead. Seriously, you don't need to get rid of money to have socialism, and getting rid of money won't stop capitalism either. Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production; creation of goods / services for profit. Charging someone more than a product is worth works with or without money.
Quote:Sorry rev, I often find your opinions insightful,
Oh crap...you're getting behind me
Quote: but going back to the barter system? Are you insane?
..and there is the knife in my back. So now my mental health is in question because I suggest that barter is ONE of MANY systems that Syndicalism can use? I think that I am fully justified in asking you not to act like an asshole over this conversation.
Quote: The reason we invented "money" in the first place was to save on the long chains of bartering that often emerge as a result.
"we" didnt invent money. I had nothing to do with it. Which money do you talk of? I talk of fiat money which I dispise. Commodity money is a bit better. Syndicalism is open to all forms of trade and currency, unlike our current fiat system in which the vast majority of transactions MUST be handled through the dollar. Some syndicates may ban all types of money, some may use it. When they do use money usury is outlawed and everyone makes the same amount per week.
Quote:For instance, if I have "3 bushels of corn" as you put it, and want to get a haircut, I have to either (a) find a hairdresser willing to exchange a haircut for my 3 bushels of corn, or (b) have to exchange my corn for something that a hairdresser wants.
..and if the situation you speak of was actual then I would say you need to get your ass out and work some more if all you have is 3 bushels of corn. Dont try to squeeze this economic discussion into a bottleneck, as the scenereo you describe is completely unrealistic. When syndicalism was in full swing in Spain, the hair dressers were running day and night. The entire town chipped in to help keep them fed and happy. This is documented from people who actually lived during the anarcho-syndicate of Spain, and I would be more than happy to show you the evidence. Either way you are dead wrong.
Quote:This "exchanging" might not be that simple; I might find a hairdresser who wants a loaf of bread, but the baker doesn't want my corn, and instead wants a bunch of flowers...etc, etc, etc.
A baker who doesnt want corn? Why would a baker want a bunch of flowers? Either way, you are arguing from ignorance as this system DID work well for 3 straight years in Spain and it took the combined forces of Franco AND Hitler to tear it down even with the anarcho-syndicates millitary forces being completely voluntary.
Quote:The whole purpose of money was to save time; to assign each item a specific value in monetary terms,
Save time? Maybe. Assign specific value? WRONG. Many prices for goods are set for what the company would like to make, especially with the greatest profit margin as possible to supply the top one percent of the companies work force with riches beyond what the people who actually create the profit and product get. Sometimes a company has to take a loss for a while just to stay afloat and lower their prices. No, it isnt used to assign specific value. Just value of the moment, which sometimes can be hagled down. You make it sound as if value is something etched in stone. In reality it is merely an ideal, prone to change at the whims and needs of the fickle public.
Quote: and use money as a method of bartering instead. Seriously, you don't need to get rid of money to have socialism, and getting rid of money won't stop capitalism either.
I never once said that all syndicates would abolish money. I PERSONALLY would like money abolished, but some syndicates would allow it. It's not my fault that you do not understand syndicalism, nor am I required to give you a lesson on it. You have Google just like I do, and nothing is stopping you from educating yourself on the subject before you come in calling people insane, then ranting on and on about something you obviously have no idea what it is about.
Quote:Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production; creation of goods / services for profit. Charging someone more than a product is worth works with or without money.
..and fiat money locks people into no other choice than accepting the system it is attached to...usury. Fiat systems lock the vast majority of people into a debt treadmill, all the while forcing them to use a medium of currency that is ultimately worthless. So, when everything is fucked up in the end, the people at the top of the pyramid are still better off and those at the bottom become actually worse.
Most, if not all syndicates look down upon profit making as fucking over your neighbor. Profit (monetary) is nothing more than taking more than your share, wether it be legal or illegal. You can disagree with me all you want, but if you look at the world through the eyes of someone seeking profit you obviously only care about making yourself better on the backs or the misery of others. they even define profit as "opportunity costs"
wikipedia Wrote:Opportunity cost is the cost of any activity measured in terms of the value of the best alternative that is not chosen (that is foregone). It is the sacrifice related to the second best choice available to someone, or group, who has picked among several mutually exclusive choices.
In other words, profit is clearly fucking someone over... causing the other to sacrifice.
THIS is the problem. THIS is why America and the rest of the world economy is all fucked up right now...profit.
