Does the Quran support Theocracy?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

My approach is mostly based on the idea that humans are evolving and that they have to evolve and change (mutate) in order to survive.

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   It’s just that nothing (including religion) cannot be business as usual anymore. 500 years ago we canons, longbows, muskets etc. SO what we could do to ourselves, to one another, to the environment had its limits. Everyone is forgetting that Putin has nuclear bombs in his arsenal. Not Cossacks and foot soldiers
  
   So I’m not really “revising” or “correcting” religion. It’s just that there has never been a single way of understanding the message of any religion. So a rational and (according to me) more beneficial approach to scriptures is also possible.

    On your Atheist argument: “Religion is a fairy tales to alleviate the fear of death whose main function is to sedate ordinary people” (the Marxist approach: “Religion is the Opium of the People”). I agree with it. I would never have subscribed to this forum if I didn’t see it this way. That’s a practical / empirical truth. 

   Still: This approach is not the only possible approach. And it’s not the only possible approach in Islam either. In fact my “school” if you like dislikes political divisions based on faith and condemns the usage of religion for political goals and for other worldly goals. 

   And my position is not some subtle / philosophical position. I am decisive in my belief and I will confront people who have a more “political” approach to religion. 

   To me it’s very clear: Religion and/or the study of spiritual realities is a personal path / a personal choice. No one can force you in or out of it. And the progress in that path is very personal. No one can teach you anything because it’s just you and your perceived reality of God. There can be spiritual friends / mentors etc. but the path is 99% a solitary individual path. 

   The fact that you live in a theocratic country or that you are a part of a group with some fundamentalist interpretation of religion is seen (in my “school”) as a hindrance to spiritual progress. Because it’s like learning philosophy. In that kind of environment you cannot do your studies, have your discussions, make your personal mistakes, unlearn, re-learn, debate, have inner conversations etc. 
   And that’s a 20th century pedagogical approach: As I said. We are changing as a species and religion has to evolve as well.

   One thing I hate for instance is the guilt thoughts or thoughts of “original sin”. See old-style parents were very authoritarian toward their kids. (like in the song “When the Man comes around” by Johny Cash). People had to know who was in charge and guilt and fear were constantly used to keep everyone in check.

   We don’t do that anymore. We don’t spoil our kids but we talk to them “as friends” and we try to act in a democratic manner so that they don’t hate us when they turn 15 or so. When we have a problem with teachers we don’t lower our head and say “yes mistress” while looking at the floor because she might hit us with her stick etc.

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   So that’s the main idea here: evolution   

. I can tell you about Mr Wayne Dyer (who died very recently).

Not all that recently - he died in 2015. And he snuffed it without ever apologizing to Albert Ellis.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

I do not disagree with any of this. 

If you like reading about the Rover Perseverance for instance. I remember how exited I was when I was reading (/hearing /seeing) about the rover pathfinder back in the 90’s. It takes about 8 minute for those robots to get whatever radio command signal is issued from earth. And it’s mainly based on a Soviet Lunar Rover Lunokhood that goes back to the 70’s. And still, they are now working with Elon Musk-like companies to send a robot-rocket to Mars, collect the specimens that are currently being collected by Perseverance, Put it on Martian orbit, ship it back to earth and then analyze it, to see if by any chance life has started on Mars a few billion years ago, at the same time as Earth.
 
That alone is such a love story. As you put it, it’s everything mysticism isn’t. But as I said, true mysticism usually acknowledges this “reality” about science. When Sadhguru was asked if it was karma (destiny) that a man was currently on a wheelchair, he said “No, the reason for that is probably that he didn’t get a polio vaccine when he was a child”. The word “Karma” actually means “action”. By the way Sadh guru has a brain surgery last month or so. He didn’t try to heal it through bio energies and/or prayer for instance.
 
   But don’t get me wrong, The Church of Religious science (for instance) says that “This world is not real, only God is real, so what matters is what you believe in, not the physical medicine”. There was a religious group in the US who simply refuse to take medicine and try to heal through prayer. This is not it. But we sort of believe in things like playing therapeutic music to the sick, sending Reiki energy to the sick, praying on behalf of the sick, praying together with the sick or making visualizations about the sick can and does contribute to their healing. There was even a proposition, before the invasion of Iraq by George W. Bush, to send advanced meditators to the Middle East, to try to raise the energy level of this geography (and therefore promote peace in the region).
 
   Not everyone agrees with this type of belief in our current technology-oriented civilization. But tell me: What did the US achieve militarily in the Middle-East through physical intervention?
 
- So I believe that Egyptians were like quite advanced in these things. And there are parallels to that at least in Ancient India. The Vedas are also conveying some very intriguing stories (like the stories of Homer) about Kings and Rulers who lived in a world in which everything we see as “supernatural” was actual reality. Like the story of King Arthur for Instance.
 
All of this is to say that the Egyptians were not just some farmer civilization on the shore of the Nile. In my view, they knew about everything we now see as “Alternative medicine” and more. They had no colonoscopy but they could magnetize you to try to understand your ailment. Like the doctors of Ancient Greece, with the only difference that these guys were real.
 
Besides, they believed in Maat. Which is the principle of justice. The Pharaoh’s main purpose was to make the spirit of Maat rule over the entire country.
 
So all those ruins and the Sphinx for instance are not able to talk. So I am sort of trying to talk for them and give them a voice.
 
I mean none of these people had thoughts like “Oh we are so pathetically primitive today, why don’t we kill ourselves and reincarnate in a few millennia”. Each and every one of them thought that they were the most advanced state of mankind (which they were in that time), and considered themselves quite lucky of being whoever they were back in those days.
 
So back to our subject: The challenges we are facing now are huge. Mr Michio Kaku was one enumerating the powers humanity had acquired (citing an old Japanese deity for each one of them). Well, it doesn’t mean anything if we have all those powers and more if we go extinct in few decades does it?
 
My proposal is that maybe spirituality is also trying to teach of something. What if Sadhguru is right and we are like this infant who is sitting on the floor with a very sharp knife in its hand?
 
I think there are many elements about us that is pointing out to the fact that yes, indeed, this might be the case and that we might be at a point in which we have to take this evolutionary step.
 
And as I said: You don’t need to adhere to any religious group or dogma to do that. In fact, philosophy (ordinary philosophy) and some amount of intellectualism is able to get you there too. I prefer spirituality, because I see it as letting go of your childhood bicycle and stepping into a real automobile.
 
The universality of this is that God being a phenomenon present in each and every one of us, anybody can take this leap if he or she desires to do so. And in fact, the energies of our times are quite supportive of that too.
 
So with this confidence in me I see no problem in calling out the entirely dogmatic false beliefs that are based on fake spirituality for what they are. My philosophy teacher was referring to this as “Human stupidity”.
 
Example: Last day I saw this guy who was trying to feed stray dogs with some pieces of chicken he had purchased in some place. I told him in a rather friendly manner they he could be infected with salmonella by handling raw meat in that way and the reason why the stray dog was not eating his precious gifts was that it was bad for the dog, That he had to cook the meat first, separate the bones so that the broken bones would not cause injuries in the animal’s digestive system.
 
- He simply ignored me. (He was in this belief system in which he was simply being pious by giving food to those poor beings and I was too much of a scientific minded person to understand the good he was trying to do there). I related this story for anyone is stereotyping Texans: Please come and see human behavior happening in this region first before judging anyone on that.
 
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In my view: Religion and spirituality has been this safe haven for human stupidity. Yet in today’s world, and this is going to increase, it’s anything but that. My feeling is a feeling of someone who is taking this inner journey and who is getting results on a personal and even social level and this is like a good thing in my life and I do have the intention to pursue this even further.
 
And No: “The Dao that is spoken of is not the true Dao”. So not everyone who is claiming to be on a spiritual path is truly on a spiritual path.
 
Example: I don’t believe in hell. But the guy I mentioned above, I really hope there is hell and that he burns in it for what he did (and is probably still doing as we speak).

"True" mysticism, as you've consistently employed it, has only ever been a weasel word for all of the ways that -you- think mysticism as practiced is false.   My guy...I think you're probably an atheist dealing with that last little step........shhhh, don't tell "allah".

Sure, sure, you're dissatisfied with what a bunch of witchdoctors told you was "atheist ideology" - but those guys are shameless liars, as you know. I'm not a huge fan of the bullshit they rail against either.... You let this out every now and again, when you insist that atheists have it more right than your islamist fellow travelers. Now, that may not be true. Maybe there really is some tribal arab god out there pouring lead up peoples assholes....but you don't think so. You, according to you, think we have it more right than magic book.

Good for you...or not...depending on the above. The whole bit would be resolved easily for you, had you not clearly been indoctrinated into islamism by whomever - because what you call "spirituality" we call "humanism" - no ghosts need apply.

As for that last bit. Just stop. Just because you don't like what other people describe as their spiritual, doesn't mean that they aren't on a spiritual path. You're the one that's wrong here, demonstrably and self evidently wrong - with you...yourself...as an example...even in the limited context of your own traditions. When I generously apply the islamist batshit translator my life's experiences have granted me I see that you first words in that post are essentially evergreen. That you and I probably agree on every bit of meaningful content. The only difference is that I'm far past the point were I believe that the superstitions I was raised with are the answer, or any answer...to the problems those things have never resolved.

So go. Go pray. Try to spirit yourself a fucking solution...and when you inevitably realize that this doesn't work..both me and the problems in question will still be here, and all you'll have done is waste time you could have spent trying (and likely failing) to solve them by credible means. Multiply that by thousands of years and you'll have the whole story of abrahamism.... or.... at least, the whole story worth telling.

[Ferrocyanide]

8Are We There Yet:
 
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/adolescent-health.htmG9+
 
Grand Nudger:
 
That’s an interesting point:
“Tell me about your heaven and I’ll tell you what you are missing in life”
 
Still: I’m not so sure that science and technology is going to solve everything for us.
 

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I mean: Are we the most gifted generation that has ever existed?
 
My Grandparents needed to go to a public bath for instance. Did anyone here ever go to a public bath in his/her lifetime?
 
Yet: We are not that happy. I don’t know about you but I always look forward to the next good thing in my life. Advertisement is pushing all sorts of useless stuff into our hands. And many are simply too caught-up in this game.
 
So spiritually come and says: “Wait a minute. Just stop for a second and be here now”. We might lengthen this debate if you like, but that’s what I see in it.
 
The accomplishments of major civilizations are not myths. We are able to go there and observe them (though historical records and archaeology of course).
 
But what I said about Ancient Egypt is something I could say for the Arab civilization of the Middle Ages. Within history there are those highly advanced societies that could harbor a man like me without killing me in a few months from an infectious disease and/or burning me alive by accusing me of incarnating demons. All that I said was that I would not miss the 20:00 news of this civilization that much. Nor would I miss the alienation, the pollution, massive cities on concrete…
 
Just look at our cities: No civilization has ever built anything that ugly. + Going from one edge of London to the other edge in the 19th century was faster than now in the 19th century.
 

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I’m not saying it would not be difficult. But I don’t think I would shed a tear for not being able to return to the 20th century.
 
Brian Sodding:
 
1- Yes. That’s what I am saying.
2- I’m not a believer in time-travel. In fact let us leave this analogy aside. I would not mind living a different lifestyle. I wouldn’t be that unhappy in a more communal / pastoral type of living if I could afford it. All I am saying is that this urbanized / industrialized / technological / liberal-economy life is not always making that much sense to me. All I am saying is I would not miss it that much if I lived in ancient Athens for instance.
 
Meaning: Yes Science and technology is great. It’s good to go see a certified MD rather than the priestesses of the Temple Asceplius who will prescribe you some herbal medicine and diet based on the dreams you saw while sleeping on the floor of the temple. Yet… Did you see the Movie Dances with the Wolves” (Kevin Costner – 1991) – I don’t think anybody is missing my point here
 

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3-4: We all have our theories. My theory is that something is not working at its full capacity inside of us. And even saying that is one of these “deep” issues of spirituality. It’s not scientifically proven. But it’s a type of practical knowledge, so when you have it, you know it.
Another mentioning of the movies. Let’s think of cloud Atlas. Why is it that we have this need for more? Why does everyone always want more instead of (for instance) realizing how lucky you are for having some of the most unnoticed things in your lives?
 
In my case that is a lake. I’ve had a house with a lake view for more than 30 years now. Last year they built a huge conglomerate in front of me. And then that was it: No more lake.
 
For 30 years, I had all sorts of issues. But it didn’t really cross my mind that I was so lucky of owning a house with a view on the lake. Never.
 
So you may think of this a type of practical philosophy. A process of self-transformation. I know people who tattooed themselves with the phrase “carpe Diem” (Seize the Day) on their arms. But how do you seize the day? How do you bring yourselves to see and enjoy a beautiful view on the lake while it is still there?
 
This world is all about having things, being promoted, putting price tags on things. So let me ask you: Let’s say I will pay you, what is the price of a living tree? If you chop down a forest you can sell the wood and build over the area and make millions of dollars. But what is the price of a tree, that’s just standing there being alive and all that?
 
- So this society has a problem. I’m not saying that my way is the only way. But I believe that if we learn more about what we truly are, we may make a U-Turn before the Titanic hits the giant iceberg.
 
And the thing is: It all starts with us (Us-Ourselves).
 
So that’s my proposition. That’s my approach to things. Some say it’s all messed up: Well maybe it is.
 
But as I said: I used to like science fiction books. I don’t like it that much anymore. I am more convinced now in a future without humans. Meaning: Our specie is going to be more self-aware in the future. I think we will even get to a point where armed conflicts will not exist anymore. And this won’t happen through science. It will happen through us working on our problems in the way I’m describing here.
 

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You can at least accept this as a theory right?

Science is just about knowledge. It is about learning about the universe and various parts of it work.
Technology is about using science to make some useful gadgets: a bridge, a building, an electric engine, glassware, etc.
Mass production is about using science and technology to make a lot of product and reduce the production cost.

I don’t know if every problem will be solved through science. Probably not.

As for the comment about happiness, it is in human nature to want more:
more entertainment. Someone who likes music wants better hits but there comes a point where it is difficult to find more.
(I remember Michael Jackson saying that once you have a hit, you try to do better and try to come up with a bigger hit and maybe you’ll succeed but for the next one, it becomes even harder to do better)
if you like scary movies, you’ll keep on searching for more but after watching your 100 movie, it doesn’t have the same impact as the first few you watched.

If there wasn’t anything more or anything new, then life would become boring.
If they didn’t release a new version of Windows and didn’t try a few stupid ideas, then the technology stagnates.

I think the present is way better than the past for reasons already mentioned. Better healthcare, easier life, more entertainment.
There is a cost that comes with it: huge cities with millions of people and nobody knows anybody.
At one point, I felt like I was just waking up, going to work, coming home to just eat and sleep and then work tomorrow again. Life seems a bit pointless when the majority of your life is spent at work.

In the old days, they had large families, they spent a lot of time together. That bond helped people to reduce stress. They worked hard on their farms but you don’t need to put in travel time to get to work, no need to work 8 h per day.
Probably once the kids grow up, they don’t move thousands of km away. They live nextdoor to mom and pops.
This also has an effect on marriage. Marriages lasted since it was a wide family bond and not just a bond between 2 people.

You had a house by the lake. That is beautiful but it is human nature to get tired of it eventually.

Paradise? Utopia? Heaven? I ask theists about it and non of them can give a clear answer as to what their heaven is. They can’t even answer what they want to do for 1000 y or 10^100000000 y.
I know the answer. Whatever they want to do, they will eventually get bored of it. The only way to escape boredom is to wipe your memory and start over.

If there is a god that has existed for an infinite amount of time, how many planets/universes and life forms has he created so far? After a while, what’s the point? There isn’t a single theist that can answer that one and it happens to be one of my favorite questions for them.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17

I’m not a believer in time-travel. In fact let us leave this analogy aside. I would not mind living a different lifestyle. I wouldn’t be that unhappy in a more communal / pastoral type of living if I could afford it. All I am saying is that this urbanized / industrialized / technological / liberal-economy life is not always making that much sense to me. All I am saying is I would not miss it that much if I lived in ancient Athens for instance.

I rather think what you mean is that you wouldn't miss much if you lived in the fantasy you have of ancient Athens.

Boru

[Ferrocyanide]

But don’t get me wrong, The Church of Religious science (for instance) says that “This world is not real, only God is real, so what matters is what you believe in, not the physical medicine”. There was a religious group in the US who simply refuse to take medicine and try to heal through prayer. This is not it. But we sort of believe in things like playing therapeutic music to the sick, sending Reiki energy to the sick, praying on behalf of the sick, praying together with the sick or making visualizations about the sick can and does contribute to their healing. There was even a proposition, before the invasion of Iraq by George W. Bush, to send advanced meditators to the Middle East, to try to raise the energy level of this geography (and therefore promote peace in the region).

This idea that there are gods and aliens and that you can ask them for help and they will freely give it to you because they are so kind and nice is an ancient idea.

You can setup experiments where you can pray for people and you can do statistical analysis and you’ll find out prayer doesn’t work.
Such things has already been done.

I have done it as well using a coin toss. Many coin tosses. You get nearly 50% heads and nearly 50% tails.
It doesn’t matter which alien you pray to.

Churches aren’t interested in doing an analysis. They don’t want to know if their prayer works. Finding out the truth, discovering is not their goal. They want to continue to live in their world of make believe.
They want to believe that prayer works.

It is funny that they pray to get cured or they pray to get a job and things of a statistical nature.
Why don’t they pray for knowledge? It would be crystal clear that the favorite alien or your favorite god is not going to give you information.

not the physical medicine

Yes, they have a lot of difficulty in accepting that they are made of atoms. A lot of theists have a problem with that.

Listening to music, doing something that makes you feel good probably has an effect on your health. It reduces stress levels. It is not good to be in constant stress.

[Leonardo17]

Grand Nudger:
 
“You, according to you, think we have it more right than magic book.”
 
- I didn’t say that. I said that atheism was in many ways a safer ground with less room for mistakes. So if someone has no religious / spiritual affiliation, I don’t see a problem with it.
 
Yet: If you or someone else decides to go spiritual, there is some potential benefit there. And that’s what I am about here. That’s my area of interest.
 
“Because what you call "spirituality" we call "humanism"”
 
- On a personal level, I think I moved beyond those distinctions. I am ok with both
 
Last Part:

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I am not being diplomatic here. Or maybe I am, but I am still very serious.
 
One of the teachers said here was going to Church with his family back when he was a teenager in the 1930’s (He passed away now he was a very old man). That he didn’t believe any of the mythology that was accounted to him there, which was something he was doing before becoming one of the main teachers of advanced meditation techniques during the second half of the 20th century (and beyond). So I am dead serious when I say that I agree with you on some issues.
 
And here is an example of the deeper issues we are facing right now:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/hot-cant-brea...15354.html
 
Do you know the meaning of 110 C Fahrenheit in a tropical climate?
 
Many people in these countries are too poor to afford AC. Many of them are not even going to survive this.
 
I am switching the subject but, where is our science and technology? In many ways, we are more powerful than the Gods of most mythologies. But this isn’t really Covid-19, AIDS or even Cancer. Such a dramatic shift of temperatures has not happened on this planet except when we were hit by the asteroid Chicxulub 66 million years ago.  
 
But I am ok with your approach too. Being critical-minded is not a bad thing with all the BS people are trying to sell us out there.
 
My decision is more like “I decide to trust” some sources that are available to me. And advanced meditators don’t even do that. They are invited to “directly experience” the higher levels of consciousness. That’s what they do in Yoga for instance.
 
My position as a deist is that there is value in most of the “Great Teachings” of this world. I believe that your experience with Abrahamic Religion has been rather superficial.
 
I’ve told you many times, my approach is not this many prayers a day, staying hungry at this time of the calendar, believing in this or that mythology as it has been related to me by this guy or that guy. Then spread the word to everyone because everyone else is too dumb to get it the way I do.
 
I think I have some level of understanding on these issues. So I am taking the liberty of sharing my own personal ideas on some of the main issues of this world.
 
Ex: 1944 this week was when French women were granted with the right to vote (That happened in the month of April 1930 in Turkey). This year in the month of March was when they included abortion rights into the French constitutions. The reason why they did that was to avoid a Poland of US like scenario at any time in their country.
 
So I am like carrying this debate to the next level here.
 
When I was a kid there was this kid from a more traditional family system. We would openly ask him “Why do you believe in God, you know there are no Gods” and he was like “You know I prayed once and it happened”…
 
This is not the issue here. I am a believer in change. I think there can be ways of believing that should not provoke more scientific-minded people that much.
 
I am not saying that I found the Ultimate Truth. What I am saying is more like “Even with all that science, do we even know what’s in the emptiness around us?”
And Yes, I am critical of the pure technology-minded approach to life in general: Is there anyone here who would say no to breath clean air? To swim in lakes that were entirely unpolluted, to eat food that was grown without any harmful chemicals? To drink water that is free of micro plastics?
 
And this is not a “So is the Truth” type of argument. It’s more like “Yes, but what about that thing? What do you think about that thing?”
 
So this should be the general mood of our debate. Thanks
 

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Ferrocyanide:

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At this point I can say that I am a believer in psychiatry and/or works of therapy and counselling when these are necessary. I also believe in not taking ourselves too seriously. I’ve had friends for instance, to decide to not think too much about death because the phenomenon is simply too upsetting to them.
 
Final part: That’s one of the things I learned. Gurus / Teachers or spirituality does not have all the answers either. Technically it is beyond us to have all the answers (even if we end up as an enlightened being Like the Persian Poet Rumi or a Great Yoga Master like Yogananda).
 
So as I said: Science is valuable because it is science.
 
My proposal is that: If a “religious / pious” man or woman is messing with basic human rights and/or the rules of logic or science or the fact that our largely imperfect ways of social organization are simply the best way of governance that is available to us and that anyone (religious or not) should try to promote that way of living instead of undermining it (based on some interpretation of religion) – that person is making an error in a spiritual sense.

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Based on my limited amount of spiritual study, I am telling you that this is an Ego-based attitude. The man or woman in that case who is presenting himself / herself as “pious” might be the perfect fool. And this matters to me because there are way too many of them in our days. Because of the increased amount of communication we have today, these fools are in the computer screens of teenagers in Europe and are radicalizing those vulnerable individuals. So I thought that maybe there should be some sort of counter-balance.
 
BrianSodding:
 
- I would not be willing to throw away any of the benefits of modern society. But there are anarchist political theories. In some of those theories they want to maintain some of the gains of scientific progress while simply going back to nature and anarchy for everything else.
 
But you may be right. I don’t see myself as a worker in some agricultural land-plot nor as a military leader in one their armies. But I would try it if I had too
 
Ferrocyanide:
 
This is the field of Parapsychology and the supernatural. As I said, I am not an expert in that.

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Yet: If you have inner issues (like anger, guilt, toxic thinking, jealousy etc.) and you are unable to work it out, this can and will create physical illness of some sort. So in some part of the spiritual work, we do focus on these issues. Louise Hay + MD Mona Lisa Cruz has some very interesting work on these things and I sort of believe it. That’s why combat sports like boxing are seen by many as “The sport of real gentlemen” because it allows you to release all those repressed feelings while learning to care and think of your opponent at the same time.
 
But I won’t argue with you on the issue of prayer. It happened in Germany. A group of Reiki practitioners wanted to help a patient in the hospital. The Doctor just didn’t let them in so they had to send it from distance.
 
The fact is: I don’t think there is real evidence for that. I mean yes, there are studies that seem to show that people who are prayed for have better rates of recovery (and some people would crucify me for saying that), but yes, there is plausible deniability there too.
 
But still: the benefits of regular meditation on the brain have been measured. We are activating the frontal lobe of our brain which is associated with greater impulse-control, creativity and rational thinking.

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You will find-out that people in real-life who approach spirituality the way I do are usually very well educated, intelligent, critical minded and very well connected to the realities of our times.
 
In fact, maybe the problem is that we are a little too connected. I know people who still put their plastic waste into the ordinary trash can. If I was able to do that, it is possible that I would not have turned into a spiritual person in the first place.   
 
 
 
 

[The Grand Nudger]

Do you know the meaning of 110 C Fahrenheit in a tropical climate?

Yes, I grew up in a swamp in the se us.  
 

Many people in these countries are too poor to afford AC. Many of them are not even going to survive this.
 
I am switching the subject but, where is our science and technology? In many ways, we are more powerful than the Gods of most mythologies. But this isn’t really Covid-19, AIDS or even Cancer. Such a dramatic shift of temperatures has not happened on this planet except when we were hit by the asteroid Chicxulub 66 million years ago.

Where is sci and tech?  You mean, other than in the ac you acknowledge, or shade structures, or houses, or clothes, or the logistics to do all of that and the equipment to move it - up to and including affected populations in the worst case scenarios..along with any and every potential solution to those problems in the pipe, currently going, or yet to be dreamt up.  Other than everywhere, the sci and tech is apparently nowhere.

Now....... "spirit" up a single solution to it getting hot outside?
 

But I am ok with your approach too. Being critical-minded is not a bad thing with all the BS people are trying to sell us out there.
 
My decision is more like “I decide to trust” some sources that are available to me. And advanced meditators don’t even do that. They are invited to “directly experience” the higher levels of consciousness. That’s what they do in Yoga for instance.
 
My position as a deist is that there is value in most of the “Great Teachings” of this world. I believe that your experience with Abrahamic Religion has been rather superficial.

Perhaps you believe that because it's convenient, rather than accurate.
 

I’ve told you many times, my approach is not this many prayers a day, staying hungry at this time of the calendar, believing in this or that mythology as it has been related to me by this guy or that guy. Then spread the word to everyone because everyone else is too dumb to get it the way I do.

...and yet, look at your comment directly above.  
 

I think I have some level of understanding on these issues. So I am taking the liberty of sharing my own personal ideas on some of the main issues of this world.
 
Ex: 1944 this week was when French women were granted with the right to vote (That happened in the month of April 1930 in Turkey). This year in the month of March was when they included abortion rights into the French constitutions. The reason why they did that was to avoid a Poland of US like scenario at any time in their country.
 
So I am like carrying this debate to the next level here.
 
When I was a kid there was this kid from a more traditional family system. We would openly ask him “Why do you believe in God, you know there are no Gods” and he was like “You know I prayed once and it happened”…
 
This is not the issue here. I am a believer in change. I think there can be ways of believing that should not provoke more scientific-minded people that much.
 
I am not saying that I found the Ultimate Truth. What I am saying is more like “Even with all that science, do we even know what’s in the emptiness around us?”
And Yes, I am critical of the pure technology-minded approach to life in general: Is there anyone here who would say no to breath clean air? To swim in lakes that were entirely unpolluted, to eat food that was grown without any harmful chemicals? To drink water that is free of micro plastics?

-and the solutions to each of these problems are scientific and technical.  
 

And this is not a “So is the Truth” type of argument. It’s more like “Yes, but what about that thing? What do you think about that thing?”
 
So this should be the general mood of our debate. Thanks

Except there doesn't seem to be any "and also".  How do any of the magic books - any of them - these great works that hold important stuff that you think is relevant to these issues.......propose that we filter our water, our air, or fertilize our crops?

If your proposal resolves to "we should become luddites like the gods intended" then this is not a solution to those issues as they existed and will persist whether we have or employ technology or not, it's a declaration of surrender. The "spirituality" of just quitting....and from where I sit, even that doesn't require any spirits, or any great knowledge in our historic superstitions. Just the usual misquided outlook promoted as a means to grasp social authority in god-bothering cultures.

I get that this doesn't look that way from your end, I really do. From your end all you're trying to do is salvage some parts of some treasured thing you came up with but not longer genuinely believe. The practical effect, though, what that urge leads you to do, is the same misappropriative shit the superstitious have always been engaged in. Attempting to claim for your "spirituality" whatever your peers might find valuable in a given place at a given time...insisting all the while that these obvious and productive ideas which you wish to make concordant are simultaneously innadequite to the task at hand as if that would even matter when your own are no solution to any of them whatsoever.

[Ferrocyanide]

 
If you or someone else decides to go spiritual, there is some potential benefit there. And that’s what I am about here. That’s my area of interest.
  

What is the benefit?

 
My position as a deist is that there is value in most of the “Great Teachings” of this world. I believe that your experience with Abrahamic Religion has been rather superficial.
  

But if the subject is “there is value in these great teachings and in medication”, you need to also state what that value is, what it has done for you so far and maybe give a few examples from real world events.

 
But I won’t argue with you on the issue of prayer. It happened in Germany. A group of Reiki practitioners wanted to help a patient in the hospital. The Doctor just didn’t let them in so they had to send it from distance.
  

I looked up reiki
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/reiki

It seems to be what is called therapeutic touch in the USA.
What the therapeutic touch guy does is just hover his hands over the body or something of the patient. I have seen some of them do that to a bottle of blood.
Some nurses take courses on therapeutic touch. In other words, they pay money to become experts.
At the hospital, the patient can ask for a nurse to do TT. The patient pays for it.

This is a bit like asking a priest to come and bless your house. He comes and sprinkles water and does some prayer and you pay for it either with money, time, respect.
But what they do, is it really effective?
How can we figure out if some works or not?

https://edzardernst.com/2015/02/reiki-no...on-stilts/

Look at the text that says:
“It reminded me of the excellent study by 9-year-old Emily Rosa, later repeated more robustly, that showed that therapeutic touch practitioners could not tell when they had their hands over the patient’s hand.”


Of course, the believers in such claims are going to make excuses:
1. In the old days, some people thought the Earth was flat. Now we believe that it spheroid.
2. In the old days, it was said that heavier than air flight is impossible.
3. In the old days, it was believed that atoms are indivisible.
4. In the old days, it was believed that the universe was in a steady state.

Those fall into the category of Science gets updated. There are things we don’t know yet.
The believer claims that we don’t know yet how the prayer of the priest works, we don’t know yet how astrology works, we don’t know yet how homeopath and reiki works.

Another set of excuses:
1. You did not have enough faith. Your lack of faith interrupted the technique.
2. Testing it negates the effects of X.
3. The test was insufficient or improperly done or conditions were not right.

The above set blames the tester or claims that the claim is magically untestable.

[The Grand Nudger]

Reiki is the magic hands theory of medicine. It is not only valueless as medicine, it is detrimental to the health of people who need actual medicine.

I guess it's fine for creepers who like the idea of being no-touch touched....but that's what strippers are for...sooooo......

[arewethereyet]

Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any sillier.

Pages and pages of walls o' useless text.

Imma burn some sage. This place needs a cleansing.