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RE: Please present positive arguments why you think atheism is true
April 22, 2012 at 6:42 am (This post was last modified: April 22, 2012 at 6:46 am by Jireh.)
(April 22, 2012 at 12:57 am)padraic Wrote: I take full responsibility for my own actions
what objective responsability do you have, if God does not exist ?
If God does not exist, good and evyl cannot exist. Everything is relative, and you set your morals, according to your preferences. There is nobody that can say, you are wrong and right. If Hitler thought, he was right in doing, what he did, who can tell him, that is not true, he was wrong ?
(April 22, 2012 at 12:59 am)Phil Wrote: Explain how a god that breaks scientific laws (those are explanations of reality) and is defined by a mass of logical contradictions is possible to exist.
if God created the physical laws, why should he not be able to break them ?
what logical contradictions ?
(April 22, 2012 at 1:15 am)Phil Wrote: That I agree with however your reply was to Jireh and he was referring to the god of the bible not a deistic or undefined god. Truth be told, when a god is defined fully, there hasn't been one that could not be disproven.
please disrove then, that a God, described as below, can exist :
God is the supreme being of the universe. God is a unbodied mind, He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin, he is perfect in his character and person, he is righteous in all His attitudes and actions, he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless in authority, immutable, he is the truth. Moreover, God is self-existent, nonspatial, nonmaterial, unimaginably powerful, and personal.
RE: Please present positive arguments why you think atheism is true
April 22, 2012 at 6:50 am
(April 22, 2012 at 6:36 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: We PASS the burden of proof? Is the burden of proof on you to disprove invisible dragons, unicorns and faeries instead of any who propose their existence is real?
The problem is that if you believe there is no evidence for God's existence, it would be difficult to attempt to present any evidence to you at all. After all, your presupposition is that "there has never been a shred of evidence" presented. Undoubtedly, any evidence that might be presented for God would be evidence that must be dismissed because, as atheists like you say "there has never been a shred of evidence" for God's existence. So essentially the atheist is saying he wants people to provide him with evidence but it doesn't matter what evidence they provide because he will dismiss it automatically - an action consistent with his belief that "there has never been a shred of evidence" for God's existence.
The dogma of Evolution is taken on 100% faith as follows; faith that there is no other possible position; faith that “science” will find all the answers; faith in the [irrational] connections drawn between supposed “ancestors”; faith in the supremacy of the mind of man.
A Faith Statement might be as follows:
I have complete, non-negotiable FAITH in the following tenets:
· Faith that the supreme intelligence in the universe is me, embodied in my mind.
· Faith that the appearances of design are false.
· Faith that the first life self-assembled from warm chemicals in goo.
· Faith that the universe is a self-induced, random occurrence.
· Faith that a “multiverse” that we can’t see is a rationale for a random universe producing life (Anthropic principle is false).
· Faith that my mind is an assembly of random mutations, with no actual purpose beyond survival of the fittest. (A Meat Machine). Even so, it is the supreme intelligence in the universe.
· Faith that the brain and the mind are one thing, inseparable.
· Faith that there is no intelligence in DNA.
· Faith that if I can’t sense it, it does not exist. (No metaphysical existence).
· Faith that empiricism is the one and only true path to all-encompassing Truth and Enlightenment.
· Faith in Evolution, which is unquestionable; it is non-negotiable truth. See “Heresy”, below.
· Faith that, because Evolution is non-negotiable truth, life has no meaning.
RE: Please present positive arguments why you think atheism is true
April 22, 2012 at 7:12 am (This post was last modified: April 22, 2012 at 7:19 am by Creed of Heresy.)
(April 21, 2012 at 5:40 pm)Jireh Wrote: Not ONE convincing and well founded answer so far...... no surprise here....
I'm going to use a very well-used, very relevant quote here because I get the impression you're one of those kinds of people who you could show them absolute evidence disproving god and they still wouldn't believe a thing you said: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." YOU claim god is real. Well, where is YOUR evidence? Set it up and I'll knock it down and when I do it over and over and over again maybe you'll see why we "think atheism is true [a statement which makes no fucking sense, by the way, and implies an extremely dimwitted, ignorant, and absolute lack of knowledge of atheism]."
But I won't hold my breath. Far more likely you'll do what every other theist who I've brought points against will do; cease responding to me, and instead respond to someone else in a vain attempt look like you're still in the fight.
(April 22, 2012 at 6:58 am)fr0d0 Wrote: The atheists here have no reason to believe the current predominant scientific theories.
Oh wait... they take those as fact and never question them.
No... they understand that science is all about discovery and continual evolution of said theories.
Atheists can make the crossover onto metaphysics continually and without realising. Consequently they frequently make uninformed choices.
Hey, Fr0dz, please describe in detail the last time you knew an atheist who made the crossover into "metaphysics [a word often used by people who believe in homeopathy and 'alternative medicine' and organic foods as viable, non-fraudulent, sustainable methods of medical/agricultural production]" and then made uninformed choices. And also please realize that scientific LAWS are basically factual and unbreakable as far as our knowledge extends and has been thus far proven accurate with current technology, experience, and/or mathematical equation and that therefore if you question, say, the laws of nature, you're pretty much just asking questions already asked and answered. Most of the time we don't question it because the answers to those questions are already there and explained in great detail. Not because we 'have faith' but rather because you don't need to go into question redundancy when the answers have been satisfactorily supplied as it is.
RE: Please present positive arguments why you think atheism is true
April 22, 2012 at 7:22 am
(April 22, 2012 at 6:51 am)Jireh Wrote: thats why i have asked in this thread what evidence atheists do have that naturalism is a better explanation for our existence.
You don't get it do you?
Quote:
As a darwinian, you do not believe, the ET is true ????
The dogma of Evolution is taken on 100% faith as follows; faith that there is no other possible position; faith that “science” will find all the answers; faith in the [irrational] connections drawn between supposed “ancestors”; faith in the supremacy of the mind of man.
A Faith Statement might be as follows:
I have complete, non-negotiable FAITH in the following tenets:
· Faith that the supreme intelligence in the universe is me, embodied in my mind.
· Faith that the appearances of design are false.
· Faith that the first life self-assembled from warm chemicals in goo.
· Faith that the universe is a self-induced, random occurrence.
· Faith that a “multiverse” that we can’t see is a rationale for a random universe producing life (Anthropic principle is false).
· Faith that my mind is an assembly of random mutations, with no actual purpose beyond survival of the fittest. (A Meat Machine). Even so, it is the supreme intelligence in the universe.
· Faith that the brain and the mind are one thing, inseparable.
· Faith that there is no intelligence in DNA.
· Faith that if I can’t sense it, it does not exist. (No metaphysical existence).
· Faith that empiricism is the one and only true path to all-encompassing Truth and Enlightenment.
· Faith in Evolution, which is unquestionable; it is non-negotiable truth. See “Heresy”, below.
· Faith that, because Evolution is non-negotiable truth, life has no meaning.
The dogma of Evolution is taken on 100% faith as follows; faith that there is no other possible position; faith that “science” will find all the answers; faith in the [irrational] connections drawn between supposed “ancestors”; faith in the supremacy of the mind of man.
A Faith Statement might be as follows:
I have complete, non-negotiable FAITH in the following tenets:
· Faith that the supreme intelligence in the universe is me, embodied in my mind.
· Faith that the appearances of design are false.
· Faith that the first life self-assembled from warm chemicals in goo.
· Faith that the universe is a self-induced, random occurrence.
· Faith that a “multiverse” that we can’t see is a rationale for a random universe producing life (Anthropic principle is false).
· Faith that my mind is an assembly of random mutations, with no actual purpose beyond survival of the fittest. (A Meat Machine). Even so, it is the supreme intelligence in the universe.
· Faith that the brain and the mind are one thing, inseparable.
· Faith that there is no intelligence in DNA.
· Faith that if I can’t sense it, it does not exist. (No metaphysical existence).
· Faith that empiricism is the one and only true path to all-encompassing Truth and Enlightenment.
· Faith in Evolution, which is unquestionable; it is non-negotiable truth. See “Heresy”, below.
· Faith that, because Evolution is non-negotiable truth, life has no meaning.
· Faith that after death there are only worms.
Oh wow, nevermind, you're going to be one of THESE kinds of people.
Here, I'll put it in simple terms so you can understand with your bible-belt education level.
When it comes to evolution, science has provided roughly 75% of the answers via evidence as to what, how, when, where, and why and currently uses informed guesses to piece together the 75% of the puzzle; the puzzle is not finished, there are pieces missing, but the glimpse of the finished picture is very easy to see, and at this point, the remaining pieces can be guessed at very easily.
Religion has provided claims with no evidence...basically, 0% of the answers to anything. It didn't even begin trying to present any evidence of any kind to supports its claims, which all come from second hand [at best] sources. Basically it doesn't even have the puzzle pieces. It's basically gesturing to a blank board and saying "a friend of a friend of a guy who read a book from a guy who heard what he wrote from another guy said these pieces that look kinda like...you know, like certain pieces of the puzzle MIGHT go here...or here. Maybe here. JUST TAKE IT ON MY WORD, ALRIGHT, I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!"
You are looking at these two individuals and their puzzles...and you're choosing the ranting guy with no puzzle pieces up and saying his puzzle is far closer to being finished over the guy who is nearly done and is basically just rummaging about in the box for the remaining pieces to put up.
RE: Please present positive arguments why you think atheism is true
April 22, 2012 at 7:29 am (This post was last modified: April 22, 2012 at 7:30 am by NoMoreFaith.)
(April 22, 2012 at 6:50 am)Christian Wrote: The problem is that if you believe there is no evidence for God's existence, it would be difficult to attempt to present any evidence to you at all.
I do not believe there is no evidence for God's existence. On the contrary, if he exists, then I reasonably expect there to be evidence.
I have not seen any, ergo, I find the existence of a supernatural deity highly improbable.
If you have evidence to present, I am happy to accept it. The problem is, that people like yourself have a extremely low bar for evidence. I.e. The bible says there is a god, therefore there is a god.
Quote:After all, your presupposition is that "there has never been a shred of evidence" presented.
In order to refute that presupposition, you realise you need to present a shred of evidence I have dismissed irrationally
Quote:Undoubtedly, any evidence that might be presented for God would be evidence that must be dismissed because, as atheists like you say "there has never been a shred of evidence" for God's existence.
MUST be dismissed? Why would I do that? I don't adher to an understanding of the world based on private subjective assertions, unlike yourself.
If there is evidence, I am a freethinking individual who will look at the evidence presented, and decide if it has merit.
The only presupposition here, is that evidence would be dismissed.
Undoubtedly, any evidence that might be presented for Zeus would be evidence that must be dismissed because, as christians like you say "there has never been a shred of evidence" for Zeus's existence.
Quote:So essentially the atheist is saying he wants people to provide him with evidence but it doesn't matter what evidence they provide because he will dismiss it automatically - an action consistent with his belief that "there has never been a shred of evidence" for God's existence.
Now, you're simply lying to comfort yourself in a delusion that atheists are as irrational as yourself.
Does it make you feel better? To try an convince yourself that atheists are "believers in a faith", that atheism is a religion just like Islam, Scientology, etc
You want to be able to assert so badly, that we adher to an irrational belief system like yours, which dismisses all evidence to the contrary.
Do you sleep more soundly thinking that evidence is whatever you want it to be, and denial of what you consider evidence is merely adherance to dogmatic belief, to the exclusion of what is considered to be a sound basis for ascertaining truth in a claim?
When that nagging string of doubt plucks at you, do you convince yourself that the burden of proof must be shared, because you want it to be true so badly, and denial of it hurts your ego that what you claim must be true, it must be true, it must be true and those who deny it, are only doing it to spite your little world.
When trying to discuss the existence of your God, do you console yourself again and again, that when challenged to back up your private belief with evidence, you beleive anything you present will be denied, on the basis of assertion in his non-existence, and is therefore pointless to present.
I hit the point home hard, because what you propose is that we refuse to listen to any evidence presented, when in reality, it is simply a case of defining what is reasonable to accept as true.
The only assertion I make, is that there are methods of usefully ascertaining reality as we perceive it, given naturalist and empirical methodology.
Mythology does not give us a reasonable measure of reality, given what we understand about the universe. If you wish to accept mythology as fact, thats up to you, but it is sheer arrogance to demand that others accept that as a method of discerning truth.
Maybe I've got you wrong, and you have a reasonable measure of reality which leads inevitably to a probable conclusion of deity, we're happy to hear it. The denial of the existence of such evidence however, is based upon a more reasonable expectation for a statement of truth than self-authenticating private belief, an old book and "my pastor told me..."
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
RE: Please present positive arguments why you think atheism is true
April 22, 2012 at 8:22 am (This post was last modified: April 22, 2012 at 8:24 am by fr0d0.)
(April 22, 2012 at 7:12 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Hey, Fr0dz, please describe in detail the last time you knew an atheist who made the crossover into "metaphysics [a word often used by people who believe in homeopathy and 'alternative medicine' and organic foods as viable, non-fraudulent, sustainable methods of medical/agricultural production]" and then made uninformed choices. And also please realize that scientific LAWS are basically factual and unbreakable as far as our knowledge extends and has been thus far proven accurate with current technology, experience, and/or mathematical equation and that therefore if you question, say, the laws of nature, you're pretty much just asking questions already asked and answered. Most of the time we don't question it because the answers to those questions are already there and explained in great detail. Not because we 'have faith' but rather because you don't need to go into question redundancy when the answers have been satisfactorily supplied as it is.
I know many atheists into superstition and such bullshit, exactly because of the reason I stated: You choose to be ignorant.
You make yourself look an idiot in trying to show that scientific laws aren't held as important to me as they are to you. How do you assume I treat them differently??
Here you demonstrate nicely the ignorance of atheists, and show how they manage to misinterpret the world around them, by trying to shoehorn science onto metaphysics, a subject they are forced to embrace but remain totally ignorant of. Thanks for that
RE: Please present positive arguments why you think atheism is true
April 22, 2012 at 9:03 am
"please disrove then, that a God, described as below, can exist :
God is the supreme being of the universe. God is a unbodied mind, He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin, he is perfect in his character and person, he is righteous in all His attitudes and actions, he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless in authority, immutable, he is the truth. Moreover, God is self-existent, nonspatial, nonmaterial, unimaginably powerful, and personal."
Few people here would have to disprove that such a being can exist. As mentioned before in the example of the invisible unicorn, there is little rational need to spend time disproving these things, either. On the moral/ethical grounds, I would offer one word: Epicurus. But please, tell us, why do you believe that such a fantastic creature as this god you define above exists? Can you do that in a rational way? Can you provide some sort of reason why any atheist should find reason to stop and think longer about your god than about invisible unicorns?
