Rant of logic: There is no such thing as a "Christian"

[GateofZion]

There are over 40,000 Christian denominations globally. That's over 40,000 groups of people identifying themselves as Christians with their own different interpretation of what Christianity actually is. To say one is true and the others are false is an example of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. So, how is a real Christian defined?

Based upon the definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Christian As well as my conversation with various preachers and pastors, there seem to be but two major qualifications to consider oneself a Christian:

1. Believe Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins.

2. Follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.


It's quite easy to go to step 1, that's just simple faith. That's as easy as asking to believe in Santa Clause to get infinite toys every Christmas for life. Step 2? Let's see how that follows up:

What are the basic teachings of Jesus Christ? I think it's safe to say the following:

1. Give your belongings to the poor. Less gain on Earth means more gain in Heaven. Being rich draws you away from God and towards materialism.

2. Love your enemy, turn the other cheek, if your property is stolen do not ask for it back, and if someone asks you for something grant it to them.

3. Be humble, do not carry pride.

4. Have not thought for tomorrow, simply follow and believe in Christ.


There is a bit more to list, but these are the foundations that are backed by scripture, and the ones I would think every Christian I've met would say are good values to teach.. But how many Christians actually follow them?

Forget Pat Robertson and the other mega-rich millionaire Christians, it's easy to pick on them for their obvious greed and hypocrisy. What about your average Christian? Maybe they have a flat screen TV, drive an SUV, and carry around an iPhone. Riches unheard of in the time Jesus was around. Why doesn't your average Christian give those to the poor?

What about loving your enemy? Can you truly love someone who has wronged you, especially someone you love? If your things are stolen, can you honestly say you wouldn't want them back? What about accepting verbal or physical abuse without some degree of retaliation? More than that, what about pride? Pride in your work, pride in your family, pride in your hobby, or pride in the everyday things that bring you joy? Giving thought for tomorrow. Do you have a bank account? Do you save for a 'rainy day'? Do you concern yourself with appointments, or payments, or disaster whether it be man-made or natural?


I fully wager that no Christian is immune to at least one of these prospects, it's simply impossible given human nature. These are extreme views, yes. But to label yourself a person who identifies by these views, views which if not upheld allegedly result in the worst punishment imaginable, is disingenuous. It would be like calling yourself a vegan and actively snacking on a steak dinner every night. It's not ok when another group breaks from its teachings, why is it ok to break from yours and excuse it as being "too hard"?


This brings me back to my original point and the theme of this thread: There are no true Christians. Christianity, as with all religions, is about convenience. It's bad enough that you can't get a Christian to follow their own Bible, but to not even follow the teachings of Christ, whom is the namesake of their own belief and the foundation of their morals, to me awards them no credit. It's one thing to slip up and 'sin', it's another to disregard completely.



/endrantoflogic.

[Kayenneh]

You're an atheist, what do you know about Christ, you've gotten it all wrong, you don't know/have the right to interpret the bible, blahdiblahdiblah

[GateofZion]

You're an atheist, what do you know about Christ, you've gotten it all wrong, you don't know/have the right to interpret the bible, blahdiblahdiblah

Sadly for about 23 years of my life I was a Christian, with the latter 2 or so years being a dwindle in "faith". Debating with people about Christianity, faith, and science is what ultimately lead me not not only rejecting my religion and religion in general, but become a skeptic of that which I ignored or simply accepted at face value.

I know you're joking but I just wanted to throw that out there.

[Kayenneh]

Oh, it doesn't matter if you were a believer in the past. As soon as you lable yourself atheist, suddenly you have forgotten all you've ever read in the bible or just don't understand it anymore. Nope, you need Christian Goggles™ in order to be able to read it. Or at least that's the message I've gotten from christians, even though I try to explain to them that I too was a believer. For me it was the absurdity of the bible that got me to wonder what the hell christianity was about, so the concept doesn't seem so foreign to me.

[Godscreated]

You have some points right but most are exaggerated, first things first, salvation comes from grace through our faith in Christ, then we are to try and live a holy life, that means set apart, as in set apart from the worldly thinking. As far as giving our stuff to the poor, you have gave that no thought what so ever. If we were to give all our things to the poor, then we would be the poor and the ones that received those things would have to give them back, an endless cycle that Christ never meant to happen. Christ said to those who are given much, much is expected. Take these two points and you have what Christ meant we are not to hoard, we are to help the poor, now here's where it has it's deeper meaning, whether they are poor in spirit or material things.
How about tomorrow why do you worry about it, you are not guaranteed your next breath, no matter whether you believe in God or not. Many people drop dead in their tracks every day, who knows you could be next, they surely were not expecting to drop dead at that moment. What is it that would make you more deserving to live than them.
The pride deal what's wrong with having pride in things you accomplish, Jesus did not teach this was wrong, that is what socialism results in. Christ always wants us to put our best foot forward. What Jesus was speaking of was self pride, pride that makes you believe you're better than the next guy, good enough to believe you deserve to live over others for example.
God has said man can not live up to that standard, though through Christ we are to try. If just one person outside of Jesus could have accomplished this God would not have sent Jesus to die. The love thy enemy thing, try to do as Jesus did, Father forgive them they no not what they do, Jesus loved His enemies so much He ask the Father to forgive them for putting Him to death on a cross.
Yes there are many denominations, some that have it wrong, most know that grace through faith saves them. We differ on things that in the end want amount to a hill of beans.

[cratehorus]

We differ on things that in the end want amount to a hill of beans.

You think religous war, genocide, witch burnings, and child soldiers is the equivalent of a "hill of beans"?

[GateofZion]

You have some points right but most are exaggerated, first things first, salvation comes from grace through our faith in Christ, then we are to try and live a holy life, that means set apart, as in set apart from the worldly thinking. As far as giving our stuff to the poor, you have gave that no thought what so ever. If we were to give all our things to the poor, then we would be the poor and the ones that received those things would have to give them back, an endless cycle that Christ never meant to happen.

Not really. Re-distribution of wealth dictates everyone can live generally equally if they should allow for it. If someone's house gets burned down, you build another or supply the funds to help. If someone needs food, you feed them, and if they're naked, you clothe them.

Christ said to those who are given much, much is expected. Take these two points and you have what Christ meant we are not to hoard, we are to help the poor, now here's where it has it's deeper meaning, whether they are poor in spirit or material things.

" Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Matthew 6:19"

"Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me. Matthew 19:21"

"All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Acts 2:44-45"

There is but heavy indication on material aid, not "spiritual aid".

How about tomorrow why do you worry about it, you are not guaranteed your next breath, no matter whether you believe in God or not. Many people drop dead in their tracks every day, who knows you could be next, they surely were not expecting to drop dead at that moment. What is it that would make you more deserving to live than them.

And yet all of us prepare for tomorrow. We live as if the next day will come to pass (it wouldn't matter if we did die anyway, contextually speaking of our own concern). You are constantly securing your future, and the future of your children and grand children.

The pride deal what's wrong with having pride in things you accomplish, Jesus did not teach this was wrong, that is what socialism results in. Christ always wants us to put our best foot forward. What Jesus was speaking of was self pride, pride that makes you believe you're better than the next guy, good enough to believe you deserve to live over others for example.

Jesus was far more extreme in his teachings then you will find any socialist to ever be. Despite what your conservative Judeo-Christian upbringing may have re-written for you.

"Don't be impressed with your own wisdom. Instead, fear the LORD and turn your back on evil. Then you will gain renewed health and vitality. Psalm 31:23"


"The LORD despises pride; be assured that the proud will be punished.

Pride goes before destruction, and haughtiness before a fall. It is better to live humbly with the poor than to share plunder with the proud. Proverbs 3:7"

"The day is coming when your pride will be brought low and the LORD alone will be exalted. In that day the LORD Almighty will punish the proud, bringing them down to the dust. Proverbs 21:4"


"Look at the proud! They trust in themselves, and their lives are crooked; but the righteous will live by their faith. Isaiah 13:11"


"Anyone who wants to be the first must take last place and be the servant of everyone else. Matthew 11:25"


"The world offers only the lust for physical pleasure, the lust for everything we see, and pride in our possessions. These are not from the Father. They are from this evil world. Mark 9:35"


Pride is not mentioned simply of thinking yourself better then someone, but of also taking pride in what you own or have done, or what you've learned. Matthew 11:25 even goes as far as to point out that real success is derived from being beneath others. Then there's this:



"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Phil 2:3"

Are you saying you don't have selfish ambition? The drive to make yourself better and better as a person? Do you really think yourself lower than everyone else? I don't think that you do.

God has said man can not live up to that standard, though through Christ we are to try.

Which verse? And how is it trying if you're disregarding it? Any Christian can make a pit stop over at a soup kitchen and feed and clothe everyone and spreading his wealth. You could give a hobo on the street your car and keys and you'd still have it better then him. Why would it matter anyway if you truly believed you'd be a richer man in Heaven?

Unless you actually believe Heaven and its "glory" are simply the far away carrot on a stick that you can barely make out and are unsure of whether or not it exists, so you're not willing to give up any personal happiness on Earth for it.

If just one person outside of Jesus could have accomplished this God would not have sent Jesus to die. The love thy enemy thing, try to do as Jesus did, Father forgive them they no not what they do, Jesus loved His enemies so much He ask the Father to forgive them for putting Him to death on a cross.

I'm not asking for perfection, and neither as Jesus based on those teachings. Why would be preach all of this and declare his disciples and followers to heed it, if it were not meant to be taken seriously? Again, there's a difference between slipping up and sinning (something Jesus couldn't do), and disregarding the teachings you're supposed to live by from a man you believe to be the Son of God or rather God in human form.

Yes there are many denominations, some that have it wrong, most know that grace through faith saves them. We differ on things that in the end want amount to a hill of beans.

You're simply repeating what I've said now. There's so many takes on the Bible and "God", that you have to boil it down to a couple of things just to maintain consistency among the flock. But that's the thing, the flock can't even hold to that. If simply believing Jesus was the son of God was all you needed to get into heaven, then every psycho and every crook who calls themselves a Christian is bound for glory. There has to be more to it then that, and logically speaking, no Christian truly goes that extra mile. If they did, world hunger and poverty would vanish. There's over 2 billion Christians on Earth, and quite a number of them can be found in the top 1% most wealthiest of people.

[Drich]

There are over 40,000 Christian denominations globally. That's over 40,000 groups of people identifying themselves as Christians with their own different interpretation of what Christianity actually is. To say one is true and the others are false is an example of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. So, how is a real Christian defined?

Based upon the definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Christian

actually, no. "The teachings of Christ" were primarily meant for His Deciples. For there are many 'teachings' the do not apply to us. The actual qualification of a Christian were not established till after He died. For what makes a Christian a Christian is the attonement offered to, and accepted by the beliiever. Christian 'works/deeds' are only a shadow of the faith/heart of a Christian.

As well as my conversation with various preachers and pastors, there seem to be but two major qualifications to consider oneself a Christian:

1. Believe Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins.

Which wasn't taught by Christ, but by Peter on the Day of Pentacost (50 days after the death of Christ)

2. Follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Again no. The teachings of Christ reflect the will of the Father. Christ taught only a portion of that will directed at the deciples, so they may establish the church. Christ Himself points to the partial teaching He could only offer, and tells the Apstoles to look for the Holy Spirit, to Lead and guide them.

In short Christianity is a religious effort dedicated to Christ because of the sacerficed He made. Not because He laid out all of it's doctrine. (What do you think all of the books after the gospels were for?)

[Whateverist]

I've lifted the ban I placed on viewing your posts, Drich. Welcome back to the fold. I know, I know .. it is hard to believe your good fortune, right?

In short Christianity is a religious effort dedicated to Christ because of the sacerficed He made. Not because He laid out all of it's doctrine. (What do you think all of the books after the gospels were for?)

Hard to resist such a set up line .. NT as TP?

But seriously if anyone thinks Jesus' message was about transcendence and that following him was code for realizing god within, then the answer to your question becomes "to take control of what Jesus was selling, re-brand it as a post-death experience and set the terms and price of admission." On a cynical view, that is the purpose of all the books of the bible including the gospels.


Welcome back.

[downbeatplumb]

Anyone who believes in the dead jew on a stick is a christian as taf as i'm concerned, if they self identify as christian thats good enough for me.