Does the Bible Contradict Itself?

[Undeceived]

You said believing is done with the heart, not the mind. I'm unsure about what heart you are speaking and how it differs from the mind.

One can find 'logical' reasons for anything. The trouble lies in finding the right logic. For simplicity, let's narrow it down to two: believing in Christ and not believing in Christ. Each uses a different starting point. A nonbeliever uses "me" logic--self-interestedness. A believer uses selflessness logic. A nonbeliever thinks the answer lies within them (in the way that worldly religions require works for salvation). A believer sees that he needs outside help; or to put it another way, we don't have to fight alone. A nonbeliever is always thinking about other people's perceptions of them (Adam and Eve noticing their nakedness). A believer is too occupied with others' needs to care. As infants, we start out with "me" logic. The transformation takes place with help of the Holy Spirit, who fills us with unnatural thinking habits--because, of course, selflessness makes no logical sense in our world. We must be not attack atheists for not being logical, for in a worldly sense they are more logical than us. "If I want pleasures I have to go out and get them for myself. It's a dog eat dog world; I stop running and I'll be run over."
There is an unnatural (spiritual) logic. And it is not reached by the brain, for our brain is of earthly matter. It thinks only of itself, as it is inclined to do. We are the dog that seeks prey, that desires to be the alpha dog, because that is our only evident immediate purpose. The Holy Spirit is our trainer. He teaches us not to be ravenous wild beasts looking for the next meal, but self-controlled, disciplined persons. Our new logic tells us to trust our master--He knows what is best for us. He points out pleasures that are more lasting and fulfilling. This set of goggles is cleaner and more in line with the Truth of the world, and our intended purpose in it.
The transition between goggles is done with the heart, via the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 explains this well. 9-10 quotes Isaiah, As it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
And Romans 12:2,
“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will.”

[liam]

Nobody else want a go at this? okay, I'll do it

One can find 'logical' reasons for anything. The trouble lies in finding the right logic. For simplicity, let's narrow it down to two: believing in Christ and not believing in Christ. Each uses a different starting point. A nonbeliever uses "me" logic--self-interestedness. A believer uses selflessness logic.

Off the bat I'd like to let you know that I agree with you, there is good reasoning and bad reasoning. However, that said, to say that there is 'me' logic and 'not me' logic is complete bullshit, show me a logical system whereby a set of logical arguments are presented in the 'me' category and one is not. The closest I could come to this is subjectivism and objectivism, there is nothing self-interested about this. You can't simply assert that non-believers are self-obsessed assholes simply because that's what you believe without rational backing.
next,

A nonbeliever thinks the answer lies within them (in the way that worldly religions require works for salvation). A believer sees that he needs outside help; or to put it another way, we don't have to fight alone. A nonbeliever is always thinking about other people's perceptions of them (Adam and Eve noticing their nakedness). A believer is too occupied with others' needs to care.

more self-promoting, unfounded nonsense. What answer are you on about? what grounds do you have to generalise that everyone in one group has some innate selfish/less-ness to them? that is just ignorant. Furthermore, Nothing about a non-believer implies that they're always considering themselves, if anything it is the other way around, the believer is conforming to social and cultural pressures, the non-believer has to declare their position against the consensus, this is standing against the tide and so your analogy is untrue. Moreover, in your last argument you claimed that you 'weren't alone' whereas we were individualistic, make your mind up, you're pushing a contradictory argument here. Plus, bible quotes aren't worth their pixels on here, or anywhere that considers real evidence, stop quoting. Finally, 'others' needs'? are you joking? believers have been discriminating and condemning for thousands of years whilst nonbelievers have constantly acted in a pacifist-like manner even during condemnation. I suppose the murder of others for different beliefs is caring for others, or perhaps you forget about the many crusades? That is such an insensitive, fundamentalist thing to say, you have no proof for that and the atheist/agnostic community is one of the most peaceful, progressive communities in the world you ignoramus.

As infants, we start out with "me" logic. The transformation takes place with help of the Holy Spirit, who fills us with unnatural thinking habits--because, of course, selflessness makes no logical sense in our world. We must be not attack atheists for not being logical, for in a worldly sense they are more logical than us. "If I want pleasures I have to go out and get them for myself. It's a dog eat dog world; I stop running and I'll be run over."

Nope, holy spirit doesn't exist, sorry to burst your little god-bubble. Furthermore, you have no proof for this. The only unnatural thinking that the holy spirit provides is that everything different is scary and dangerous and should be di8scriminated against. No, that's stupid, selfishness makes perfect logical sense because we are naturally, genetically disposed to make our own lives our highest priority and this was useful during primordial development, you're being scientifically ignorant. "If I want pleasures I have to be pro-active, not sit around waiting for jesus to come give me a BJ"

There is an unnatural (spiritual) logic. And it is not reached by the brain, for our brain is of earthly matter.

nope, no proof for this one either. Well then go and remove it from your body and see just how well you get on with that, because I'm pretty sure that it's 'earthly matter' will be necessary for your continued existence. Furthermore, supervenience theory and emergentism would argue that earthly matter is fine.[/quote]

It thinks only of itself, as it was made to do. We are the dog that seeks prey, that desires to be the alpha dog, because that is our only evident immediate purpose. The Holy Spirit is our trainer. He teaches us not to be ravenous wild beasts looking for the next meal, but self-controlled, disciplined persons.

Nope, we are people, but maybe even that slipped your juvenile rationale so I'll explain. That is not our purpose, there is no known purpose and you're making suppositions without the slightest inkling of logic behind them, this is called ignorance and/or stupidity, depending on whether you realise you are doing it or not.

Our new logic tells us to trust our master--He knows what is best for us. He points out pleasures that are more lasting and fulfilling. This set of goggles is cleaner and more in line with the Truth of the world, and our purpose in it.

God isn't real, therefore your argument is invalid. Furthermore, you have no knowledge of the truyth of the world because you attribute it all to some non-existent being and so have your eyes fixed firmly to the skies whereas everyone else gets that the earth has it's own truth and it's not contingent on some fairytale master.

The transition between goggles is done with the heart, via the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 explains this well. 9-10 quotes Isaiah, As it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
And Romans 12:2,
“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will.”

These are bible passages, they cannot be held to be true because they were written by people who never stopped preaching to actually think of backing up their bullshit claims with logic or evidence. Your entire argument is simply stupid and nothing you say here even amounts to the kind of good reasoning you suspect you had, your arguments are simply not arguments in the logical sense and rely on generalisations, offensive statements and a 'holier than thou' attitude which is completely conceited and unjustified, how about you accept what logic is first then come back and we can talk god? Fuck you and goodbye. (P.s- I was having homosexual sex whilst shaving my beard yesterday whilst blaspheming and disrespecting my parents, all the while I was cutting an upside down cross into my skin and using such rude words as bugger and whore. However, whilst this was occuring I was listening to rock and roll music, reading Sartre, I then proceeded to steal his wallet, fuck his wife before marriage and abort a baby with a falcon punch. I tried not to sin but it didn't work.)

[Faith No More]

One can find 'logical' reasons for anything. The trouble lies in finding the right logic. For simplicity, let's narrow it down to two: believing in Christ and not believing in Christ. Each uses a different starting point. A nonbeliever uses "me" logic--self-interestedness. A believer uses selflessness logic. A nonbeliever thinks the answer lies within them (in the way that worldly religions require works for salvation). A believer sees that he needs outside help; or to put it another way, we don't have to fight alone. A nonbeliever is always thinking about other people's perceptions of them (Adam and Eve noticing their nakedness). A believer is too occupied with others' needs to care. As infants, we start out with "me" logic. The transformation takes place with help of the Holy Spirit, who fills us with unnatural thinking habits--because, of course, selflessness makes no logical sense in our world. We must be not attack atheists for not being logical, for in a worldly sense they are more logical than us. "If I want pleasures I have to go out and get them for myself. It's a dog eat dog world; I stop running and I'll be run over."

This is probably one of the dumbest and most incorrect summarizations of the difference between believers and non-believers. For your sake, I hope this is due to ignorance and not willful malevolence.

[liam]

This is probably one of the dumbest and most incorrect summarizations of the difference between believers and non-believers. For your sake, I hope this is due to ignorance and not willful malevolence.

I quite prefer the latter, an evil man can be persuaded, an ignorant one cannot and often finds himself in both categories.

[spockrates]

You said believing is done with the heart, not the mind. I'm unsure about what heart you are speaking and how it differs from the mind.

One can find 'logical' reasons for anything. The trouble lies in finding the right logic. For simplicity, let's narrow it down to two: believing in Christ and not believing in Christ. Each uses a different starting point. A nonbeliever uses "me" logic--self-interestedness. A believer uses selflessness logic. A nonbeliever thinks the answer lies within them (in the way that worldly religions require works for salvation). A believer sees that he needs outside help; or to put it another way, we don't have to fight alone. A nonbeliever is always thinking about other people's perceptions of them (Adam and Eve noticing their nakedness). A believer is too occupied with others' needs to care. As infants, we start out with "me" logic. The transformation takes place with help of the Holy Spirit, who fills us with unnatural thinking habits--because, of course, selflessness makes no logical sense in our world. We must be not attack atheists for not being logical, for in a worldly sense they are more logical than us. "If I want pleasures I have to go out and get them for myself. It's a dog eat dog world; I stop running and I'll be run over."

Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I ask because I'm going through a time of uncertainty in my Christian walk and appreciate the help.



I don't think that I'd go so far as to say that every non-Christain practices egotism as their code of ethics. Nor would I say that Christians are immune to selfishness.

There is an unnatural (spiritual) logic. And it is not reached by the brain, for our brain is of earthly matter. It thinks only of itself, as it is inclined to do. We are the dog that seeks prey, that desires to be the alpha dog, because that is our only evident immediate purpose.

I'm not so sure there are different kinds of logic, or perhaps I don't quite grasp your meaning. I mean, the structure of a logical argument (its premises, conclusion and the way the premises support the conclusion) is the same, whether the thinker is Christian, or atheist. An informal logical fallacy is just as illogical when used by a Christian as it is when used by an atheist. Perhaps you mean to say that the atheist is of the opinion that certain premises used in such a logical argument carry less weight to her than they do to the Christian? Or are you saying there is a method that transcends mere logic, which is available only to the Christian? It seems clear to me that we are to use logical reason, for God said through Isaiah:

“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool."

(Isaiah 1:18)

Isn't God saying he desires to reason with us?

The Holy Spirit is our trainer. He teaches us not to be ravenous wild beasts looking for the next meal, but self-controlled, disciplined persons. Our new logic tells us to trust our master--He knows what is best for us. He points out pleasures that are more lasting and fulfilling. This set of goggles is cleaner and more in line with the Truth of the world, and our intended purpose in it.

I guess my question is this: In what way does the Holy Spirit teach us? I mean, can we know for certain when he speaks and when we only imagine he spoke, but were mistaken? For example, when I read passages about salvation and pray for wisdom, I don't get the answers I seek. I can see, for example how both the Protestant and the Catholic interpretations of these passages might be true. Yet the promise of God is that he will give us wisdom when we sincerely ask for it:

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

So I wonder if the fact that scripture is at times ambiguous is the wisdom God has chosen to reveal.

The transition between goggles is done with the heart, via the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 explains this well. 9-10 quotes Isaiah, As it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
And Romans 12:2,
“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will.”

Are you saying, then that the difference between a believer and a non-believer is that the former chooses to trust scripture, but the latter chooses not to trust scripture? Or is there something more to it than that?

[liam]

All seems a little wishy-washy to me, personal judgments, generalisations, premiseless arguments, citing biblical passages and inventing unfounded theories, not good reasoning at all. Respect spock's response, even if it is too supportive of the claims made.

[Cato]

Are you saying, then that the difference between a believer and a non-believer is that the former chooses to trust scripture, but the latter chooses not to trust scripture? Or is there something more to it than that?

Spockrates,
Quit fucking around and take a position. Will you proclaim that Jesus was the son of God and died for your sins?

[Minimalist]

For simplicity, let's narrow it down to two: believing in Christ and not believing in Christ. Each uses a different starting point. A nonbeliever uses "me" logic--self-interestedness. A believer uses selflessness logic.

A non-believer uses reason.

A believer uses bullshit.

You, sir, are a bullshitter.

[Skepsis]

This "me" thinking and "selfless" thinking is just a way to hide the truth: "me" thinking is really independent thinking, and "selfless" thinking is simply intellectual bankruptcy.
If you get your logical code from a bunch of fairy tales it is no wonder you fail to think for yourself.
"Convinced of Christ by reason. 2 Timothy 4:3."
Says enough about the capacity to think for one's self, doesn't it?
Claims to respect logic and reason, then sites a Bible verse?

[Godscreated]

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One can find 'logical' reasons for anything. The trouble lies in finding the right logic. For simplicity, let's narrow it down to two: believing in Christ and not believing in Christ. Each uses a different starting point. A nonbeliever uses "me" logic--self-interestedness. A believer uses selflessness logic. A nonbeliever thinks the answer lies within them (in the way that worldly religions require works for salvation). A believer sees that he needs outside help; or to put it another way, we don't have to fight alone. A nonbeliever is always thinking about other people's perceptions of them (Adam and Eve noticing their nakedness). A believer is too occupied with others' needs to care. As infants, we start out with "me" logic. The transformation takes place with help of the Holy Spirit, who fills us with unnatural thinking habits--because, of course, selflessness makes no logical sense in our world. We must be not attack atheists for not being logical, for in a worldly sense they are more logical than us. "If I want pleasures I have to go out and get them for myself. It's a dog eat dog world; I stop running and I'll be run over."

---

Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I ask because I'm going through a time of uncertainty in my Christian walk and appreciate the help.

I don't think that I'd go so far as to say that every non-Christain practices egotism as their code of ethics. Nor would I say that Christians are immune to selfishness.

I do not think he was saying that all non-Christians are egotistical and I'm pretty sure he understands that Christians are not immune to selfishness, if that were true I would be in trouble.

“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool."

(Isaiah 1:18)

Isn't God saying he desires to reason with us?

Yes and no, God desires that we follow in His will without question and we would, if our faith was strong enough. Being fallen people God knows we are not capable of this perfect faith and thus does reason with us so we can understand His will. He does not compromise with us, His will is perfect and to compromise would mean to give us standards that are less than who God is. Read verses 1-20, do you ask for God's revelation of His word before you read and are you looking for answers you want or the ones that reveal God's truth.

I guess my question is this: In what way does the Holy Spirit teach us? I mean, can we know for certain when he speaks and when we only imagine he spoke, but were mistaken? For example, when I read passages about salvation and pray for wisdom, I don't get the answers I seek. I can see, for example how both the Protestant and the Catholic interpretations of these passages might be true. Yet the promise of God is that he will give us wisdom when we sincerely ask for it:

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
(James 1:5)

This is where I think many Christians stumble, "how do we know when the Holy Spirit is teaching us."
First I believe Christians are impatient, wanting questions answered in their time and not when God knows best. Patients is truly a virtue and Christians need to understand this and they need to know God will answer through the Holy Spirit when the time is right and I know this from personal experience.
The Holy Spirit will teach us through God's word more than any other way, He will use others to teach and He will use life experiences, but however He teaches it must line up with God's word. When God answers prayer you will know it, just be patient, but always be looking because it could come quickly. When you believe you have heard from the Holy Spirit check what you believe you have heard with the scriptures and if it does not line up with God's word then you have only heard from yourself. Remember you have to ask for the things of God, ask for and through His will, if you do not you will not hear from Him, God does not promise to answer all prayer, this is stated throughout scripture.
You mentioned that you could see where Catholic and Protestant interpretation of scriptures could both be valid and I think I know what your speaking of, but remember this, if the two are in direct conflict with each other someone is wrong, truth can not be on both sides of the same fence.

The transition between goggles is done with the heart, via the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 explains this well. 9-10 quotes Isaiah, As it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
And Romans 12:2,
“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will.”

Are you saying, then that the difference between a believer and a non-believer is that the former chooses to trust scripture, but the latter chooses not to trust scripture? Or is there something more to it than that?

That's exactly what's being said, those verses that Undeceived quoted are wisdom that every Christian should carry in their hearts, they are extremely valuable, more precious than gold.

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[quote='spockrates' pid='314702' dateline='1343090600']
Are you saying, then that the difference between a believer and a non-believer is that the former chooses to trust scripture, but the latter chooses not to trust scripture? Or is there something more to it than that?

Spockrates,
Quit fucking around and take a position. Will you proclaim that Jesus was the son of God and died for your sins?

He will make up his mind when he is ready, what's your big rush, actually I know but will keep it to myself, preaching is not allowed.