Religious Symbols as War Memorials

[Tino]

Should older monuments that are religious in nature be changed/replaced to reflect our current sensibilities?
-or- Should atheists accept that our country's history is deeply religious, and tolerate such monuments?

It's mildly irritating but it's so far down in the general background noise of public religion that it doesn't seem like a battle worth choosing to fight. I might feel differently if I had to drive by it every day, but I think I'd side with the point made about tradition, and not want to upset veterans by pursuing it.

Regarding the photo of the Normandy cemetery that Brian posted, I thought about this the other day. If you've been to these military cemeteries you've seen crosses over most graves and jewish stars over others. But isn't it sad that the final marker of a life is which religious team the person was affiliated with? Your final marker could be so many things - your occupation, the highest degree you earned, the number of children you left behind, your sports team, etc. but no, it's just how many christians, how many jews.

[festive1]

Thanks for your view FNM, I have to say it makes a lot of sense. If we ever become a religious-free culture, we'll need reminders of how and why we got there...
I think what got my panties in a wad is the opinion article has that somewhat menacing undertone of "atheists aren't patriotic." Which isn't true. I've heard "Well, of course you don't care about average people, you're an atheist" a few too many times (and recently). I consider myself a patriot, I just don't always agree with how the US handles things. Why is questioning or dissent viewed as "unpatriotic"? I support our troops so much I don't think we should send them into conflicts without good cause and only after other more peaceful means have been exhausted, isn't that patriotism? Isn't that even more patriotic than sending troops into conflict just to prove we're the biggest bully on the playground? Le sigh.

[Darkstar]

I consider myself a patriot, I just don't always agree with how the US handles things. Why is questioning or dissent viewed as "unpatriotic"?

Dissent is usually frowned upon by any close-minded majority. The same thing applies to religion. The problem with nationalism is that people get so worked up and think that their country can do no wrong. Ironically, I always hear about those people whoa are convinced that every politician is corrupt and the US is doomed (but it's never their representative that's corrupt). A good example of nationalism and religion would be the crusades. It was like they were being overly nationalistic, but for religion. Loyalty to an accepted higher power is often glorified. Speaking of which, Bush calling the war on terror a 'crusade' was...

[festive1]

Are you familiar with Marion Barry? He's dubbed DC's "mayor-for-life" and is a current DC council-member... But back when he was the actual mayor he got busted in a hotel room full of prostitutes, high on crack (and his administration was kind of the epitome of corrupt government, but the crack and prostitutes are more interesting). He's been arrested several times (the last couple for failure to even turn in his taxes). But the people LOVE him... I honestly can't tell if I should despise or admire the guy, he's got balls, that much I can say. But the people love him because he's a rogue, bad-ass... They love him for his "corruption" and flaunting authority. Maybe I do like living in the DC area after all...

[Erinome]

Who, for example?
Like if it we were speaking for the British empire, who had numerous soldiers of other nationalities, races, creeds and religions, yes, perhaps....
But I'm fairly certain that the crushing majority of US soldiers were always from Christian families of European heritage.

How about the Jews? There were lots of soldiers of Jewish families of European heritage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Amer...orld_War_I

In December 2011, President Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act which contains a provision known as the William Shemin Jewish World War I Veterans Act which provides for a Pentagon review of Jewish soldiers and sailors who may have been overlooked for the Medal of Honor simply due to their faith.

Damn, I fucking love Obama!

Anyway, there were plenty of non-christian soldiers, Mehmet. So, there goes your argument.

[Polaris]

I think the aimed removal of monuments that have been present for decades, memorial or not, is a detriment to the image unbelievers are trying to express. Many of the most adamant atheists just feel it is a huge waste of time.

[jonb]

In this respect of war memorials, the brits are lucky, after the first world war many of the memorials and the cemetries were designed by an arcitectural genus Edwin Lutyens who fought a very hard battle that all british grave stones should be the same officer and men, and of any religion. You will see a cross, star, or whatever marked on the stone, but the stones themselves, a made all the same to show the equal contribution they all gave.

[Tiberius]

But I'm fairly certain that the crushing majority of US soldiers were always from Christian families of European heritage.

Absolutely 100% irrelevant. The whole point of equality is that the majority aren't treated better than any minority. Even if there was only one non-Christian who died, it is still right to honour them all as soldiers, and not by their religious beliefs. An obelisk is a traditional memorial statue that has no religious overtones.

[Red Celt]

Not a problem for me (and I'm an anti-theist). The past is the past. That's how things were done then. I mean, should we tear down Stonehenge, because we're not run by druids, any more?

Thankfully (for the UK), the Cenotaph (our main war memorial in London) is a big block of shaped rock. When it comes to *new* monuments, then yeah, that'd be highly questionable.

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An obelisk is a traditional memorial statue that has no religious overtones.

Ooo... well, now... originally, obelisks had white caps to reflect the sun. They were related to the Aten (the sun god).

[Tiberius]

Ooo... well, now... originally, obelisks had white caps to reflect the sun. They were related to the Aten (the sun god).

...hence why I used the word "overtone". The Christian cross is explicitly linked to Christianity. An obelisk has no such explicit link.

But hey, if some people are offended by the fact that their relatives are getting represented by a symbol which at one point in time (several thousand years ago) was related to a God, they can design a new monument.