Human Value Nonexistent?

[festive1]

Religion is so illogical and irrational to put our trust in, but it convinces us so strongly still.

Why would evolution favor us knowing the truth instead of a happy delusion?

Because to have a biologically sustainable group of humans, we needed to be bound together. Religion and culture filled that need. We evolved in tandem with religion (pre-Abramatic religion), our brains formed to accept it. We are naturally curious, we want to know why and how. Before science, religion gave an order and meaning to the world. Moving beyond religion, in my opinion, is the next step in human evolution, so we can move beyond the delusion and accept reality, as cold and hard as that is.

[IATIA]

Nature favors nothing. Either it is survivable or not.

Did Socrates survive and have children? Or was he killed. I know we don't know if Socrates even lived at all, but I hope you get my point

Actually no.

Nature favors nothing, so it makes no difference whether or not Socrates lived or had children or never existed.

[Mystic]

Religion is so illogical and irrational to put our trust in, but it convinces us so strongly still.

Why would evolution favor us knowing the truth instead of a happy delusion?

Because to have a biologically sustainable group of humans, we needed to be bound together. Religion and culture filled that need. We evolved in tandem with religion (pre-Abramatic religion), our brains formed to accept it. We are naturally curious, we want to know why and how. Before science, religion gave an order and meaning to the world. Moving beyond religion, in my opinion, is the next step in human evolution, so we can move beyond the delusion and accept reality, as cold and hard as that is.

Socrates type people would never be allowed to live in such primitive societies where authority is needed and wisdom tradition should not be questioned. They cause chaos in the order that is there.

So the thing is back in the day, if you weren't inclined to accept religion, you were to be silent. If you had the courage like Socrates to speak up, you would be killed.

It seems evolution would favor as leaders people who conform to society culture/religion, and advance it, or if they oppose it, come up with a myth system to replace it...which means it favors Prophets.

Poor Atheist debaters are probably hated so much more by Theists then of debaters of other religions then their own, simply because there is a strong dislike to the rational person who is against myths.

Socrates questioned everything and he was killed.

You are taking away their treasure. Wisdom is their foundational guidance, except it's not wisdom, it's a delusion with some beauty in it.

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Did Socrates survive and have children? Or was he killed. I know we don't know if Socrates even lived at all, but I hope you get my point

Actually no.

Nature favors nothing, so it makes no difference whether or not Socrates lived or had children or never existed.

Nature favors nothing? Mice sing, bat sing, because it makes them feel good. Nature favored them singing.

Art is even in many animals. They have their own mating rituals. They have their own perceptions of pleasure.

Something tell me evolution favors a lot of things.

Evolution favored us believing in religion. Don't hate all humanity because they were deluded. It's part of our nature to be deluded.

No one likes confusion. I don't think anyone back then had a complex explanation of evolution for example. And if they did, they don't have much evidence.

Science is great. But it's scary to so much people. Not everyone wants to embrace science.

Cold thought ethics, I dunno. Is society ready for it? Maybe not.

Maybe the world religions are here to stay.

[Utracia]

We make our own meaning I mean. Simple to me. I am baffled at those who seem to think that without some supernatural having some plan for us all that everything is pointless. Make your own life and make your own meaning. One doesn't need an invisible hand to guide them.

[Mystic]

We make our own meaning I mean. Simple to me. I am baffled at those who seem to think that without some supernatural having some plan for us all that everything is pointless. Make your own life and make your own meaning. One doesn't need an invisible hand to guide them.

Saddam Hussain made his own meaning to be a Tyrant. He made his own meaning. Having your own meaning doesn't mean anything. For you to say it's a significant meaning, you have to justify it. But all our perceptions of how to live very well maybe myth based. It maybe a myth that there is such a thing as praise. Maybe all actions are not praiseworthy. There is no explanation from naturalism why an action is praiseworthy.

The struggle for justice is not proven to be meaningful from naturalism perspective. In fact, it seems meaningless.

It's like Dawkins said. There is no right or wrong. No morals. No meaning. Nothing.

Are you sure you want to kill religion? Perhaps we should strive to make a fake Prophet with the coolest myth ever (I'm kidding)

[IATIA]

@MysticKnight

One word.

Apophenia

[festive1]

You are taking away their treasure. Wisdom is their foundational guidance, except it's not wisdom, it's a delusion with some beauty in it.

It is truth. I, personally, hold truth in the highest regard. I'm not fond of religion, but I'm not on a crusade to convert believers. Some people need the delusion and the lies. They would crumble without it. My experience, which has been difficult, to say the least, has forced me to accept truth. If I delude myself, it only leads to my doom. I know that sounds dramatic, but for me it simply is. Wisdom comes from truth. There are nuggets of wisdom in every religion. Off the top of my head, the Golden Rule comes to mind. But there isn't much truth to religion. Truth is harsh and not often kind, but there is a freedom in accepting the truth. That freedom transcends everything.

[Mystic]

You are taking away their treasure. Wisdom is their foundational guidance, except it's not wisdom, it's a delusion with some beauty in it.

It is truth. I, personally, hold truth in the highest regard. I'm not fond of religion, but I'm not on a crusade to convert believers. Some people need the delusion and the lies. They would crumble without it. My experience, which has been difficult, to say the least, has forced me to accept truth. If I delude myself, it only leads to my doom. I know that sounds dramatic, but for me it simply is. Wisdom comes from truth. There are nuggets of wisdom in every religion. Off the top of my head, the Golden Rule comes to mind. But there isn't much truth to religion. Truth is harsh and not often kind, but there is a freedom in accepting the truth. That freedom transcends everything.

I know, we all have our personal perception. What I'm saying is our believe in judgement, praise, morals, all can be myth we are inclined to believe in. Evolution could have favored us perceive there is praise in our actions, but there is no such thing.

Right now you feel it's praiseworthy to prefer the truth over a lie. But how far does that go. What if free-will is a delusion. Is it favorable to believe in no free-will over free-will. But it's not even possible to praise one action over another without free-will. Yet we can't even account for free-will through naturalism, and it seems in fact, the strong evidence analytically favor there being none.

Praise maybe a delusion. Some people praise Imam Khomeini others condemn him.

Everyone believes in their own perception of praise.

Look at the 20 vs 20 poly thing. I'm disgusted by it personally, but perhaps Violet thinks it's cool and praiseworthy from her perspective.

Perhaps there is no such thing as honor.

Perhaps sharing the truth to others is not always best if it doesn't make them happy.

Perhaps the Muslims should be allowed with their "barbaric" culture and theocracy, if it makes them happy.

Who is to say?

[festive1]

Precisely, who is to say. Everyone has their own mind, their own perceptions, and we are all simply getting through life the best way we can. That's it, nothing more. One thing I truly admire about my husband is that he doesn't lie. He can't lie, he is really bad at it. Does it hurt when I ask, "Does this make me look fat?" and he can't lie? Yep. But personal integrity is as good as it gets in my estimation. So I punch him on the arm and go change.

[Mystic]

Precisely, who is to say. Everyone has their own mind, their own perceptions, and we are all simply getting through life the best way we can. That's it, nothing more.

Exactly. Beautiful. And for that, I love all of humanity, no matter how misguided they are.

One thing I truly admire about my husband is that he doesn't lie. He can't lie, he is really bad at it. Does it hurt when I ask, "Does this make me look fat?" and he can't lie? Yep. But personal integrity is as good as it gets in my estimation. So I punch him on the arm and go change.

Admiration requires belief in praise. And you are judging your husband. And you believe in your judgment.

But perhaps without myth in evolution of our minds, we would never believe in judgment in the first place.

Our human nature is human nature. We embrace it, but it might be founded on delusions.

We believe loving our children is praiseworthy. We believe in helping others.

These beliefs from point of view of evolution, developed because they worked. Not because they were true or that we knew they were true.

And we never reasoned them in cold hard logica way. It was all gut instinct that conformed to those morals.

The fact is being rational beings that sought justification by being intelligent, we very well may needed to believe in delusions.

Even our concept of self can be a delusion.