Human Value Nonexistent?

[Mystic]

Well right now we believe in praise, because we believe it objective worth, even if we don't perceive it.

In what way do we all believe that praise is necessarily objective?

Someone praises us, we then like the idea, but then think about how much it's true about us. Someone insults us, we get hurt, but then have our own self-perception, if they are right about us. We believe there is an objective judgment to who we are. Even if we don't know it ourselves.

When we think about who we are, we don't only think about who were currently are, but that is biggest reflection, but all we remember about ourselves. But why do we even feel attachment to past self?

Why do we think past actions influence the "greatness" of who we are?

No one will claim they know their exact worth, but most people will have a sense of pride. Pride is not possible without some sort of believe that there is an objective value to yourself.

Ofcourse, that pride is not a measurement of that objective value necessarily, but it's approximation from subjective point of view, of who we are.

But we wouldn't even make a subjective approximation without belief that there is an objective measurement to who we are.

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I become the hearing with which he hears, the sight wherewith he sees, the tongue wherewith he speaks, - hadith qudsi

We have encompassed everything in compassion and knowledge
- quran
And we taught Adam all the names
- quran
And by the light of your face that encompasses all things - du'a kumail

The guided are only guided by light of your face - Saheefa Sajadiya

And I blew into him my spirit - Quran.

"The blessed word is is like a blessed tree, it's rooted in the well in the ground and it's fruits are in the sky" - Quran

Perhaps Magical thinking is the only way to justify our perception of praise, good and evil.

To me, it seems that way.

[HorribleOffensiveScouser91]

I used to question whether there was purpose or not, I felt there had to be. It took me a while, then I realised, we're just an insignificance on a spinning rock in the middle of nothingness.

We don't NEED a purpose, just enjoy your short time on this melting ball and try not to destroy it too much. Many people believe not having a religion for purpose makes life depressing, I believe the opposite. If you spend your life trying to climb the impossible ladder to heaven facing perishing in a fire forever as the other option, life is going to be quite shit and you're going to miss out on all the good things that are forbidden by religion.

...Give your own life its own purpose, mine is to improve something to do with this world even slightly for those who will live in it after me...I haven't started yet though, I just scratch my balls and attend uni.

[Mystic]

...Give your own life its own purpose

You would have to believe the purpose is worthy. But that takes belief in objective worth. And is objective worth possible through naturalism perspective? Praise developed from naturalism perspective because it worked.

Sure we can make up any purpose to our lives, but even that takes belief that it's a worthy purpose.

I think I like having let go of my passionate sureness. It seems right now I am objectively awakening to holiness of praise and value.

All people's praise, societies praise, it all seems random and chaotic. But when you shut off the noise, and break the foundation of your assumptions, you might awaken to the holy perception.

In other words, you will have nothing to make you know praise is real, but the praise of the sword of the soul.

There is no justification rationally I am aware of.

Perhaps "faith" is not irrational or rational, it's just what it is.

[HorribleOffensiveScouser91]

Those who cannot come up with their own purpose for their own lives are probably those who need to be given one by others, they're the ones who need religion.

[Mystic]

Those who cannot come up with their own purpose for their own lives are probably those who need to be given one by others, they're the ones who need religion.

True, but to make our own purpose, still needs belief in objective value/praise.

You need to believe it's praiseworthy.

[HorribleOffensiveScouser91]

Those who cannot come up with their own purpose for their own lives are probably those who need to be given one by others, they're the ones who need religion.

True, but to make our own purpose, still needs belief in objective value/praise.

You need to believe it's praiseworthy.

Why does it need to be praiseworthy if one is true to oneself? If you are living how you believe is right to yourself, the thoughts of others should not matter?

Easier to live life being the man you want to be and be hated, as opposed to being the man everyone else wants you to be and be loved.

[Mystic]

If you are living how you believe is right to yourself, the thoughts of others should not matter?

The thing is you believe it is right to yourself. It doesn't need to be praiseworthy, but you need to believe it's praiseworthy. But you wouldn't believe it's praiseworthy if you believe there is no such thing as objective praiseworthiness.

[HorribleOffensiveScouser91]

If you are living how you believe is right to yourself, the thoughts of others should not matter?

The thing is you believe it is right to yourself. It doesn't need to be praiseworthy, but you need to believe it's praiseworthy. But you wouldn't believe it's praiseworthy if you believe there is no such thing as objective praiseworthiness.

If you believe in no such thing as praiseworthiness you don't need it to be praiseworthiness. It could be argued that if you are true to yourself you cannot believe praiseworthiness as living true to your own belief comes with not worrying about what others think, so therefore is praiseworthiness only relevant when you do not live life by your own belief? So it seems as though praiseworthiness is only relevant if you are not confident to live life this way and need reason from another source, like religion. Praiseworthiness may only be needed if the person needs religion.

[Mystic]

I hope everyone finds their path and meaning. It's been a humbling experience. Questioning our very foundation of our humanity and self.

[genkaus]

True enough. But there even being a such thing as praise is not proven.

Ofcourse it is. The same way it is proven that there is such a thing as measurement.

True enough. Now on proving there is such a basis. There is a such measurement to humanities actions and intentions.

Read what I wrote - there isn't such a basis - yet.

That is true. But there being an objective standard at all is not proven either.

Because there isn't - yet.

There being a possible basis to praise is not proven either.

Yes it is. And you agreed to it in this very post.

Do you think that the praise afforded to an action should depend on the action and not the one giving the praise?

Yes.

Then we both agree that there can be and should be an objective basis for praise.

That is not proven. Or if there such a thing as praiseworthy.

You just agreed to it.

I think you are not understanding my point. Evolution wise, we praise each other right. We developed a concept of praise, but it was never objective. Now you saying humanity is getting to an objective judgement, but somehow are minds have to be capable of objective judgement. They being capable of objective judgement is not proven but seems to be disproven by evolution (naturalistically wise).

Clealry you don't understand how evolution works. We don't praise each-other 'evolution wise'. And that we are capable/not capable of objective judgment is neither proven nor disproven by evolution alone.

What is proven is that 'evolution wise' we have the capacity to reason, i.e. to make judgments based on our perception of reality. We are also capable of not letting our emotions or instincts affect the judgment. So yes, we are capable of making objective judgments.

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Science deals with evidence, not proof.

And, if you don't believe science or logic can evidentially justify values why are you expecting justification?

Because I can be wrong about my beliefs. I am hoping.

I think that some people are wiser than others but that is merely my opinion. If I assume I am right about that nevertheless I can make arguments following it. All I really mean by the fact that some people are wiser than others is my own interpretation of what it means for people to be "wise".

True, but then you believe it can have some reality and that it does, but not in exactly the way you perceive.

I'll explain: If objectivity refers to all objects in the universe and objects refer to things, then anything that is a thing - everything in other words - is an object. Therefore subjective things - subjectivity - must also be objects, so they must also be part of objectivity, so they must also be subjective. Therefore some things are entirely objective, while others are both objective and subjective.

On the other hand if we define subjectivity and objectivity as necessarily opposites, then anything that is subjective isn't an object, so it isn't a thing, so it doesn't exist.

Subjectivity is imaginary, imagination is the opposite of real, therefore it doesn't exist.

But then, in a different sense, subjectivity is imaginary, and imagination does exist in the sense that it is "there" we have an imagination.

I like that and have to think about it more.

To paraphrase Stephen Fry: If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people in the world?

Happiness is not necessarily bliss. Humanities belief in their value, even to a starving african child, gives them a sense of peace. It distresses them, but gives them a sense of peace.

We hope knowledge will make us better humans, but it may not, well not in the way we hoped for.
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