The Insanity Machine (and the Notion of God)

[Strongbad]

Atheists, for their part, simply can't understand why anyone would adopt what appears to be an insane idea without any evidence.

Atheists, for their part, CAN understand why people "adopt" the insane ideas of religion. People "adopt" ideas which their parents and other authority figures indoctrinate them with when they are children. The vast majority of christians, muslims, jews, hindus, etc. were inculcated with their religion almost from the time of infancy, and have virtually no choice except to believe what was forced upon them.

Your "Insanity Machine" is simply a self-perpetuating cycle: each brainwashed generation in turn brainwashes their offspring, instructing them that only their religion is correct, and to be leery of all others.

A few of us have escaped from the machine.

[genkaus]

Common pattern on atheist forums:
Atheist: “The church taught (insert universally-condemned practice).”
Theist: “On the contrary, Jesus taught the opposite. And the church bases its beliefs on Jesus’ words.”
Atheist: “You must first prove Jesus exists.”

Can we stay on topic?

Sounds perfectly reasonable.

Atheist: "The church taught (insert universally-condemned practice). Here's evidence of the church actually teaching that."
Theist: "On the contrary, Jesus taught the opposite. And the church bases its beliefs on Jesus’ words."
Atheist: "Prove that the church bases its beliefs on Jesus' words. For that, you must first prove that he existed. Then establish an independent authority on what his actual words were - the only authority you have now is the church. Then show all of the Church's beliefs can be based on those words. We provided evidence for our claim - you do the same. And currently, you fail at the first step."

[Drich]

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I hope you guys don't mind me posting from my blog here. I would love to discuss this. I think the idea really crystalizes one particular problem with Christianity, which may explain the relationship Christians, Muslims, and atheists have with one another. Religion is redeemable, I think, but this particular demon must be defeated. Here's what I have to say:

(X-posted to Aquadox)

I want to give a little more time to the idea of God and why it's so problematic. I seem to be noticing a rift between American atheists and Muslim Arabs. Both groups are generally really good people. They are polite, friendly, and try to get along with everyone. But they just seem to talk past each other on the topic of religion. And more importantly to the topic at hand, the way in which they talk past one another illustrates an important point about religion.

I need a little more experience with Muslim communities. But every time I interact with Muslims I tend to think that they just can't comprehend the idea of someone not loving God. They just don't see why someone would reject God out of hand, for no obvious reason. So they revert to their own cultural beliefs and come to what I believe is a defensive conclusion drawn out of sheer bewilderment—American culture is anti-God.

Atheists, for their part, simply can't understand why anyone would adopt what appears to be an insane idea without any evidence. Which is really a perfectly reasonable conclusion in most philosophical categories. They don't understand why any Muslim would declare belief in a God they can't see and who obviously (to them) does little to help anyone. It's like believing in an imaginary friend who tells you to kill people, they think.

Is this really a clash of cultures? I believe not. I think it's two groups of people talking past one another because they simply don't have enough information on the other group. There are critical pieces of information missing.

Here is one critical piece of information which, from what I tentatively experience, is really unique to the West, and particularly America. It's what I call the Insanity Machine, and it is associated with religion.

Here's how it works. The Insanity Machine declares a philosophical proposition to be ultimately, fundamentally true or false, and no argument for or against the conclusion is allowed. Every attempt to argue against the conclusion is met by absurdities in defense of the Machine. But here's the kicker: these absurdities all appeal to existential crisis, which is common to all human beings, and cannot be successfully repudiated without appeal to another philosophical proposition that is ultimately, fundamentally true or false. The Insanity Machine then uses the concept of infinite punishment in hell to declare that it's proposition is essentially correct, and appeals to your fear of this hell to bully you into dropping your conclusion, whatever it may be, and settling for it's own.

Allow me to illustrate.

Human: "I am so happy to read that the Bible promotes love for all human beings. We should all be loving to one another."

Insanity Machine: "Bullshit. You have to hate Black people and Muslims or you're going to hell."

Human: "How can you say that?"

Insanity Machine: "Hate is actually love. God is love, and God hates people, so you have to hate people or you're going to hell."

Human: "Hate can't be love. That doesn't make any sense."

Insanity Machine: "It doesn't make sense because a demon is bewildering you. God has preordained who is going to heaven and hell for all eternity and nothing you do can change the fact that you're going to hell, unless you come to the conclusion that you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior."

Human: "Why would God do something like that?"

Insanity Machine: "You can't argue with God. Everything I say has the authority of God and everything you say is from the devil. So adopt what I say or go to hell."

Human: "Jeez, what if a demon is bewildering me? How would I know?"

Insanity Machine: "You know because I'm telling you and I have authority. Believe me or go to hell."

Human: "Where do you get your authority?"

Insanity Machine: "From God."

Human: "How do I know it's the right God?"

Insanity Machine: "Because God says so, and if you don't believe in God you're going to hell for all eternity and you have no hope for anything. It doesn't matter if you know it's the right God because God has preordained that you will go to heaven or hell whether you know or not. Therefore you'd better know, or else you'll suffer in infinite burning pain for all eternity roasting and frying away in writhing agony forever."

Human: "What if this insanity machine is right? How would I know? I don't want to go to hell! What can I do? What on earth is the solution?"

Insanity Machine: "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?"

Human: "Well I think so but..."

Insanity Machine: "Shut up, fucktard, you haven't accepted anything because you disagree with me. Now accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior RIGHT NOW or I will PERSONALLY see to it that you roast and boil for ever and ever and your seething skin will flake and peel off and you will try to cry out in pain but you'll be in infinite darkness and you'll never be heard and every nightmare will come true and your eyeballs will boil and infinite pain forever."

Human: "Oh God! What do I do!"

Insanity Machine: "You worthless scum, I just told you what to do. Now do it. Do it, or else."

Human: "Christ! I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior! Please save me from hell! Please help me! I can't breathe I'm so frightened!"

Is it just me, or does this look an awful lot like a confession obtained under duress? The human being, of course, then goes on to use every excuse to proselytize and preach hatred and intolerance for the rest of his life, causing endless varieties of pain and suffering, and feeding into a cycle of fear which makes seeing the world correctly near impossible.

Now maybe I'm just ignorant. But I have never seen a Muslim bear any hint of an idea like the Insanity Machine. But in America, we see it all the time. Literally everywhere. It pervades our entire culture. It is by far the most insidious demon I've ever seen, and you only see it in Christianity. And if I'm right, and no Muslim has ever really looked this demon squarely in the face, it goes a long way to explain the rift between atheists and Muslims.

See, atheists are actually very courageous. Atheists are more courageous than I am, because while I for whatever crazy reason can't seem to stop talking about God, atheists are psychologically able to dismiss this ridiculous and disgusting Insanity Machine as absurd and reject it. They go on to spread their beliefs against intolerance, fear, hatred, and the agony of the soul-rape that is the Insanity Machine by telling everyone to avoid God at all costs. Unfortunately, people who have never heard of the Machine simply don't understand.

Anyway, regardless of what culture you're from, I feel it is of utmost importance to state this concept, and name it. I've named it the Insanity Machine. Now, hopefully, anyone who recognizes it in a wild-eyed, crazy demon-possessed Christian can simply say, "Hey, that looks an awful lot like the Insanity Machine to me. Care for a Xanax?"

---

[Cinjin]

Christ himself only taught hell to his disciples, and not as leverage when evangelizing (preaching to the masses).

What a steaming pile of apologists bull shit that is.
Jesus could be talking to martians and it wouldn't matter. If it was put down as record in his holy book of horse shit, that means you people are going to sell it as fact. The truth is he was probably a greasy con man if he existed at all, and if he was, it would be highly likely that he would want to use the fear of hell to get a "free lunch" whenever he could.

Here we have a condensed list of places that Jesus specifically mentions hell. I think it's more than fair to say that Jesus threatened people with hell on a pretty regular basis, and you filthy apologists would rather use less offensive words like, "Jesus reminds us of hell," or "Jesus didn't use hell as leverage," when all the evidence in his holy book of lies points to the contrary. It's in there, deal with it. Your god is a fuckstick douche nozzle.

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Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
So, by my count, there are 15 places in the Bible where Jesus is recorded as using the word "hell" while He was on Earth.

---

[Drich]

I don't know what happened to my response, but here it is again.

This is an observation made from a singular perspective seemingly based on one personal experience with seemingly little to no exposure to the people being discussed. Not even basic/recent history was consulted when this opinion was made. Religion aside to me this is the 'insanity machine.' For what reasonable person looks at one or two examples out of a billion and formulates a theory that is supposed to encompass the whole community? Left unchecked I am sure you would happily go through the rest of your life believing this mess, and would attempt to pigeon hole everything and everyone else you met outside of your comfort zone. Minus the hate this is how old fashion bigots got all of their information about people they encountered outside of their comfort zones.

Again religion aside I am speaking from a non-white perspective observing your recorded thought process and behavior and compare it to: Historical data, Personal experience, and Societal identification and condemnation of the observed/recorded behavior. Do you see the difference between what you did, and what I just did? You based everything on a feeling you got from your admittadly limited experience with the subject, (good bad or indifferent) and then formulated an opinion. I took un-arguable fact (Your blog) and identified a given behavior with actual source or reference material that parallels the behavior i identified.

[Angrboda]

I hope you won't mind me posting this here, but I originally misread your name as "MultipleTesticles," and wondered, "how many?" (Two is a nice round figure, imho.)



(I need to get laid, really I do.)

[Cato]

I don't know what happened to my response, but here it is again.

This is an observation made from a singular perspective seemingly based on one personal experience with seemingly little to no exposure to the people being discussed. Not even basic/recent history was consulted when this opinion was made. Religion aside to me this is the 'insanity machine.' For what reasonable person looks at one or two examples out of a billion and formulates a theory that is supposed to encompass the whole community? Left unchecked I am sure you would happily go through the rest of your life believing this mess, and would attempt to pigeon hole everything and everyone else you met outside of your comfort zone. Minus the hate this is how old fashion bigots got all of their information about people they encountered outside of their comfort zones.

Again religion aside I am speaking from a non-white perspective observing your recorded thought process and behavior and compare it to: Historical data, Personal experience, and Societal identification and condemnation of the observed/recorded behavior. Do you see the difference between what you did, and what I just did? You based everything on a feeling you got from your admittadly limited experience with the subject, (good bad or indifferent) and then formulated an opinion. I took un-arguable fact (Your blog) and identified a given behavior with actual source or reference material that parallels the behavior i identified.

Dude, get help! All shit aside, get help.

[Angrboda]

I don't know what happened to my response, but here it is again.

This is an observation made from a singular perspective seemingly based on one personal experience with seemingly little to no exposure to the people being discussed. Not even basic/recent history was consulted when this opinion was made. Religion aside to me this is the 'insanity machine.' For what reasonable person looks at one or two examples out of a billion and formulates a theory that is supposed to encompass the whole community? Left unchecked I am sure you would happily go through the rest of your life believing this mess, and would attempt to pigeon hole everything and everyone else you met outside of your comfort zone. Minus the hate this is how old fashion bigots got all of their information about people they encountered outside of their comfort zones.

Again religion aside I am speaking from a non-white perspective observing your recorded thought process and behavior and compare it to: Historical data, Personal experience, and Societal identification and condemnation of the observed/recorded behavior. Do you see the difference between what you did, and what I just did? You based everything on a feeling you got from your admittadly limited experience with the subject, (good bad or indifferent) and then formulated an opinion. I took un-arguable fact (Your blog) and identified a given behavior with actual source or reference material that parallels the behavior i identified.

Dude, get help! All shit aside, get help.

He's already got help.

It offered him candy.

[MultipleTentacles]

Minus the hate this is how old fashion bigots got all of their information about people they encountered outside of their comfort zones.

As long as we're taking my post as fact, did you not happen to notice the time I spent sincerely defending Islam, in a post-9/11 America at war in the Middle East, when I grew up in a Christian, Libertarian family in Northern Idaho? I've about had it up to here with ignorant dipsticks on the Internet claiming I'm racist, or not willing to look outside my comfort zone.

As for your claim.










You want historical? How about the faith-destroying Saint Augustine, the father of the Latin church?

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should
believe a lie, that they nil might be damned who believed not the
truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Some people might
think it unjust that the Omnipotent should first deceive them,
and then punish them for being deceived; but to St. Augustine
this seems quite in order. "Being condemned, they are seduced,
and, being seduced, condemned. But their seducement is by the
secret judgment of God, justly secret, and secretly just; even His
that hath judged continually, ever since the world began."

From Bertrand Russel's History of Western Philosophy. St. Augustine: The first Calvinist.

Look at that statement, directly quoted from the original St. Augustine: "Being condemned, they are seduced, and, being seduced, condemned. But their seducement is by the secret judgment of God, justly secret, and secretly just...."

Translation:

"Because God says so, and if you don't believe in God you're going to hell for all eternity and you have no hope for anything. It doesn't matter if you know it's the right God because God has preordained that you will go to heaven or hell whether you know or not. Therefore you'd better know, or else you'll suffer in infinite burning pain for all eternity roasting and frying away in writhing agony forever."

Recent history, you ask?

Well aside from the obvious perfect harmony with the Calvinists, who are still quite powerful, let's look at "recent" history.

The "young earth Creationists" believe that "When the Bible and science disagree, they consider science to be pseudoscience—no matter how many learned men espouse it. They believe that this maxim applies: 'They have rejected the word of the Lord. Are they so wise after all?'" (Explore Your Faith by Ed Strauss) In other words:

"You can't argue with God. Everything I say has the authority of God and everything you say is from the devil. So adopt what I say or go to hell."

And how about this, from the same book:

By not preaching the gospel, Christians are, in effect, hiding it from those who are perishing. ... Some Christians suggest that those who've never heard the Gospel in this life will be given an opportunity to hear it in the next. ... This answer seems reasonable but doesn't find strong support in scripture. Indeed, the Bible seems to exclude it, saying that "each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment."

Meaning that the Insanity Machine has the absolute right to say what is truth and what is fiction, whereas you have no such right, because obviously you haven't heard the true Word from a true Christian yet, and you will go to hell forever and ever for no reason.

From the same book:

He (Jesus) didn't answer that only very good people entered heaven. He said it was impossible for anyone to do so. ... However, Jesus added that with God all things are possible.

Meaning, of course:

Human: "Where do you get your authority?"

Insanity Machine: "From God."

Human: "How do I know it's the right God?"

Insanity Machine: "Because God says so, and if you don't believe in God you're going to hell for all eternity and you have no hope for anything. It doesn't matter if you know it's the right God because God has preordained that you will go to heaven or hell whether you know or not. Therefore you'd better know, or else you'll suffer in infinite burning pain for all eternity roasting and frying away in writhing agony forever."

Now don't try to tell me that this is just an isolated occurrence, or that "Not All Christians Think Like That." My original argument was that it can be generalized across Christianity. "You just got your sources from one book lol!" One book which I picked up in the Christian book section of a grocery store, with an intended audience, obviously, of everybody. Tell me, mr. marginalized and demonized Christian, exactly how many Christian sources do I have cite before my argument becomes valid? "seemingly little to no exposure to the people being discussed," you say. When I grew up in a Christian family, went to a Presbyterian church, studied in Sunday School, in a country where eight out of ten people are Christian (Pew research). If you would've said I have no basis for discussing Islam, you may have had more of a case. As it is, your views to me are so completely discredited that, at this juncture, I have absolutely no reason to listen to anything further you have to say.

"Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting."

Have a nice day.

[downbeatplumb]

On that fifth picture down I couldn't quite make out team rockets agenda.