The Insanity Machine (and the Notion of God)

[FallentoReason]

Out of the instances when Jesus refers to "hell" that Cinjin listed, at times it is the Greek word for "Hades" that Jesus is using. Now... why the heck does Jesus refer to a different mythology altogether? You Christ fanatics have an answer to that?

[The Grand Nudger]

Perhaps christ, like any travel agent, offers connecters to and fro wherever his customers wish to find themselves. All you have to do is handle a small agent's commission......

[Undeceived]

And not only do Christians use hell as leverage, they see it as an ethical imperative to do so. They don't feel like they're doing their jobs unless they frighten someone with the idea of hell.

1. It sounds like you're suggesting Judaism and Islam have no leverage. Only Christianity has a punishment for not serving God, and therefore it must be man-made (I'd like an explanation for that leap). You would then proceed to provide other, unrelated reasons why Judaism and Islam are man-made--making the criteria for insanity different for each religion.
2. Have you met many of this kind of Christian, or are you projecting popular culture? All of the Christians I know would never use hell to frighten. They use it because they believe its the truth. If a tidal wave is coming to wipe out New York and you knew about it, wouldn't you tell every New Yorker you find?
3. All (Biblically) well-read Christians should know that the threat of destruction does not save, a heart open to God's forgiveness saves. The Bible makes it clear that one must have faith to escape hell. The people who watched Noah build the ark were warned of the coming Flood, but the warning accomplished nothing without faith in the God who would send the Flood. Faith saves, threats do not. The Bible is crystal-clear about this, so it has no true author-intended threat power. Thus, your kind of proselytizers would have to ignore the Bible in order to justify their actions. It is not logical for anyone to fabricate a religion that has to use false doctrine to scare people into joining.

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Common pattern on atheist forums:
Atheist: “The church taught (insert universally-condemned practice).”
Theist: “On the contrary, Jesus taught the opposite. And the church bases its beliefs on Jesus’ words.”
Atheist: “You must first prove Jesus exists.”

Can we stay on topic?

Atheist: "Prove that the church bases its beliefs on Jesus' words. For that, you must first prove that he existed. Then establish an independent authority on what his actual words were - the only authority you have now is the church. Then show all of the Church's beliefs can be based on those words. We provided evidence for our claim - you do the same. And currently, you fail at the first step."

It is universally accepted that the church bases its beliefs on Jesus' words. This is evident in the Apostles and Nicene creeds. I do not have the burden of proof because tradition overwhelmingly holds in my favor. There are third-party sources as well as eyewitness accounts of Jesus. If the Gospels were written thirty years earlier, would you then call them proof? What do you define 'proof' as? Be careful not to make all of history unprovable (well, I guess you could, but that would get us nowhere).

[MultipleTentacles]

1. It sounds like you're suggesting Judaism and Islam have no leverage. Only Christianity has a punishment for not serving God, and therefore it must be man-made (I'd like an explanation for that leap). You would then proceed to provide other, unrelated reasons why Judaism and Islam are man-made--making the criteria for insanity different for each religion.
2. Have you met many of this kind of Christian, or are you projecting popular culture? All of the Christians I know would never use hell to frighten. They use it because they believe its the truth. If a tidal wave is coming to wipe out New York and you knew about it, wouldn't you tell every New Yorker you find?
3. All (Biblically) well-read Christians should know that the threat of destruction does not save, a heart open to God's forgiveness saves. The Bible makes it clear that one must have faith to escape hell. The people who watched Noah build the ark were warned of the coming Flood, but the warning accomplished nothing without faith in the God who would send the Flood. Faith saves, threats do not. It is not logical for anyone to fabricate a religion that has to use false doctrine to scare people into joining.

Undeceived, I agree with everything you say here. Let me clarify and explain a bit:

Leverage is worldly. It is dialectic, involving a self, and an other. This is the definition of dialectic, and the basis of all things worldly and not divine. Thus the fact that any religion has any leverage at all is proof that that particular religion is defiling the Name of God.

Muslims do have leverage. They are conquerers; historically, they conquer nations and establish rulership. They use their military and economic might as leverage to establish Islam. But they do emphatically NOT use the philosophical tenets of Islam itself as leverage. They don't try to frighten people into joining their religion. Historically speaking, they would conquer a nation, establish rulership, and then allow the people who were living there first basically to go about their business without bothering them, because that's what the Quran instructs them to do. Case in point: most of India.

I honestly haven't studied Judaism all that much, but one thing I know about the religion would seem to basically undercut any attempt to use God as leverage in any way: They are AGNOSTIC about God. They have FAITH that God exists, but they emphatically and repeatedly insist that they cannot know God. God hides His face from the world so as not to destroy it; this is what they believe, and that is why they can't use God as leverage.

Jews, obviously, have a lot of leverage. They are highly intellectual, and in America anyway, they have a lot of money. But I think you would be hard-pressed to find a Jew who believes that their philosophical propositions and their money is in fact the Word of God. So no, again, Jews do not have religious leverage over people.

How does a real religion convert people, as opposed to a cowardly religion? A real religion will convert people by being nice, beautiful, wonderful people with warm hearts and kind words for everyone. Then, naturally, people will want to know their religious beliefs, and then follow them. A cowardly religion will convert people by focusing mainly on the fear of hell as a philosophical tenet, and then bully people into adopting the religion using fear of hell.

What Christian uses fear of hell as leverage? I've given evidence that Christians use fear of hell as leverage, in my response to Drich. In the current state of things, ANY Christian who doesn't believe that they are using hell as leverage is, I think, being intellectually dishonest about being a Christian. It is a demon in the back of their skull—the insanity machine—created by Church doctrines, forcing them around and making decisions for them. No, Christians are not evil. No, they do not want to hurt people, usually. But this demon in the back of their skull forces them to do it.

Want to save The Church? Work to ditch the demon.

Here is the evidence I've spoken of:

You want historical? How about the faith-destroying Saint Augustine, the father of the Latin church?

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should
believe a lie, that they nil might be damned who believed not the
truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Some people might
think it unjust that the Omnipotent should first deceive them,
and then punish them for being deceived; but to St. Augustine
this seems quite in order. "Being condemned, they are seduced,
and, being seduced, condemned. But their seducement is by the
secret judgment of God, justly secret, and secretly just; even His
that hath judged continually, ever since the world began."

From Bertrand Russel's History of Western Philosophy. St. Augustine: The first Calvinist.

Look at that statement, directly quoted from the original St. Augustine: "Being condemned, they are seduced, and, being seduced, condemned. But their seducement is by the secret judgment of God, justly secret, and secretly just...."

Translation:

"Because God says so, and if you don't believe in God you're going to hell for all eternity and you have no hope for anything. It doesn't matter if you know it's the right God because God has preordained that you will go to heaven or hell whether you know or not. Therefore you'd better know, or else you'll suffer in infinite burning pain for all eternity roasting and frying away in writhing agony forever."

Recent history, you ask?

Well aside from the obvious perfect harmony with the Calvinists, who are still quite powerful, let's look at "recent" history.

The "young earth Creationists" believe that "When the Bible and science disagree, they consider science to be pseudoscience—no matter how many learned men espouse it. They believe that this maxim applies: 'They have rejected the word of the Lord. Are they so wise after all?'" (Explore Your Faith by Ed Strauss) In other words:

"You can't argue with God. Everything I say has the authority of God and everything you say is from the devil. So adopt what I say or go to hell."

And how about this, from the same book:

By not preaching the gospel, Christians are, in effect, hiding it from those who are perishing. ... Some Christians suggest that those who've never heard the Gospel in this life will be given an opportunity to hear it in the next. ... This answer seems reasonable but doesn't find strong support in scripture. Indeed, the Bible seems to exclude it, saying that "each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment."

Meaning that the Insanity Machine has the absolute right to say what is truth and what is fiction, whereas you have no such right, because obviously you haven't heard the true Word from a true Christian yet, and you will go to hell forever and ever for no reason.

From the same book:

He (Jesus) didn't answer that only very good people entered heaven. He said it was impossible for anyone to do so. ... However, Jesus added that with God all things are possible.

Meaning, of course:

Human: "Where do you get your authority?"

Insanity Machine: "From God."

Human: "How do I know it's the right God?"

Insanity Machine: "Because God says so, and if you don't believe in God you're going to hell for all eternity and you have no hope for anything. It doesn't matter if you know it's the right God because God has preordained that you will go to heaven or hell whether you know or not. Therefore you'd better know, or else you'll suffer in infinite burning pain for all eternity roasting and frying away in writhing agony forever."

Now don't try to tell me that this is just an isolated occurrence, or that "Not All Christians Think Like That." My original argument was that it can be generalized across Christianity. "You just got your sources from one book lol!" One book which I picked up in the Christian book section of a grocery store, with an intended audience, obviously, of everybody. Tell me, mr. marginalized and demonized Christian, exactly how many Christian sources do I have cite before my argument becomes valid?

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I have to say a few more words...

Do many Christians try to use hell to frighten? Actually, I have known Sunday School teachers who did exactly this.

However, it really doesn't matter, as long as the demon exists. The point is not what Christians are doing, but what the demon is doing. And to examine what the demon is doing, we can't simply examine what Christians do, but why they become Christians in the first place. Why do new people convert to Christianity? I'd bet that the fear of hell has a lot to do with it.

[Cato]

1. It sounds like you're suggesting Judaism and Islam have no leverage. Only Christianity has a punishment for not serving God, and therefore it must be man-made (I'd like an explanation for that leap). You would then proceed to provide other, unrelated reasons why Judaism and Islam are man-made--making the criteria for insanity different for each religion.

Let me put your mind at ease. All three Abrahamic religions are full of shit (this includes any sectarian schisms you think are important). Was this not understood? Or can I take your reply as a polite invocation of the christian persecution complex?

2. Have you met many of this kind of Christian, or are you projecting popular culture? All of the Christians I know would never use hell to frighten. They use it because they believe its the truth. If a tidal wave is coming to wipe out New York and you knew about it, wouldn't you tell every New Yorker you find?

If you think christians don't use hell as a marketing tactic, you don't know many christians (Oh I know, insert True Christian definition here). Perhaps you can answer a question that has perplexed every man of the cloth I posed it to.

Why would the devil punish me for eternity for breaking the same rules that made him the devil in the first place?

[Undeceived]

How does a real religion convert people, as opposed to a cowardly religion? A real religion will convert people by being nice, beautiful, wonderful people with warm hearts and kind words for everyone. Then, naturally, people will want to know their religious beliefs, and then follow them. A cowardly religion will convert people by focusing mainly on the fear of hell as a philosophical tenet, and then bully people into adopting the religion using fear of hell.

We'll assume for the moment that your judgment of real vs. cowardly religions is correct. The next step is to show the Bible is a bully. What verses link a man's salvation to his knowledge of hell? Once a man knows about hell, is there something he can do to make sure he enters heaven?

[MultipleTentacles]

Not sure I need to answer that question, Undeceived; the fact that it's in the Bible should be enough. But the is definitely Biblical support of the Insanity Machine in the Book of Revelations. For one, the entire book is obviously designed to induce fear. For another, it clearly establishes that half the world is going to he'll. And most importantly, it specifically and explicitly consigns any sense of mystery or coming to terms with existential crises to the Whore of Babylon, which clearly establishes the Insanity Machine's legitimacy and efficacy in appeal to authority and arguing from existential crisis.

[Undeceived]

Not sure I need to answer that question, Undeceived; the fact that it's in the Bible should be enough.

Hell is not merely a scare tactic if it is true. You're arguing that hell is nothing except for leverage--leverage and nothing more (or you should be if your conclusion is that the Bible is man-made). I agree hell can theoretically act as leverage, but how do you know it isn't also a real place? It could just as easily be the case that Jesus and his followers know about hell and want to inform people--none of them highlight hell in their sermons, but faith and grace instead. What makes you conclude they are liars who mention hell to get money or power?

For one, the entire book is obviously designed to induce fear.

Any scriptural support? Here's what I found on fear:
http://www.womensbiblecafe.com/2011/05/5...s-on-fear/
http://christianity.about.com/od/prayers...blever.htm
Most representative is 1 John 4:18 NLT: "Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love."

For another, it clearly establishes that half the world is going to hell.

Would it not be wise for a money-driven religion to welcome everybody? Alienating half the world is usually more a work of truth than of ambition. Why do you think all the other religions are so reluctant to come up with a hell-like place? If it was successful everyone would be doing it, right? If it was not successful, I fail to see the leverage.

And most importantly, it specifically and explicitly consigns any sense of mystery or coming to terms with existential crises to the Whore of Babylon

Could you restate this so it's easier to understand?

[MultipleTentacles]

This conversation is getting more bizarrely insipid by the second. And I'm seeing less and less reason to make any response at all. It's as though I see a guy walking down the street with a gigantic, poisonous leech on his back, so I elect to tell him, and he's like, "First you'll have to establish that my back was purposefully designed to accomodate leeches, then you'll have to proove that I in fact invited the leech onto my back of my own free will, and finally you'll have to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that this so-called leech you speak of in fact has poisonous blood sucking ability and a adverse motivation, and by the way I'm not going to believe you anyway because leeches aren't mentioned in the Bible."

Look. I don't have to prove that Jesus was trying to leverage people. I don't have to show that the Bible supports the Insanity Machine theory. All I have to show is that the Insanity Machine exists, and occurs most often among Christians. Anyone who opens their eyes, at all, should be able to easily come to this conclusion, especially with the evidence I've provided.

The Whore of Babylon is named "mystery." Her main gospel is the idea of truth which "is, yet isn't, yet is." The only way to come to a resolution of existential crisis is to accept a bit of mystery, and come to the conclusion that you "are, yet aren't, yet are," which is actually a neat little summation of the meaning of faith itself. Faith is distinguished from mere knowledge in that it admits of a little agnosticism, for the simple reason that the object of knowledge, in a worldly sense, does not exist, yet in a divine sense exists, so therefore, according to grace, does in fact exist.

The entire Book of Revelations is obviously designed to induce fear and destroy faith, because of an absolutist idea about existence, so that the voices in your head can argue from your existential crisis with the authority of God and the Bible to adopt any kind of conclusion without question because you're afraid of infinite hell. You're not allowed to have faith that your conclusion, that for instance God will allow you to join a different church, because you don't KNOW your conclusion, therefore the deliverence implied by it exists, yet doesn't, yet does. Thus the Book of Revelations is the most evil tract of bullshit ever written, designed to kill faith in Jesus, and bring all mankind under the uncompromising dominion of the Church. Not the "true Church," mind you, but the physical, worldly, man-created church.

[Undeceived]

designed to induce fear... to adopt any kind of conclusion without question because you're afraid of infinite hell.

The thing is, the Bible does not allow you to adopt 'any kind of conclusion.' Faith alone saves. There is no action you can respond to the knowledge of hell with that will save you from hell. You must have faith that Jesus' sacrifice will rescue you from hell. No one will consider the existence of hell unless they have/accept the way out. This is human psychology-- hopelessness and 'infinite' torture are incomprehensible. We have never known utter hopelessness or infinity or a state like hell in which God is completely absent… love and all. Neither can one understand an absence of faith, hope or love (what hell is) unless they see the source of all three. To a nonbeliever, faith, hope and love do not exist so there is no concept of infinite hell, only an extreme form of physical torture, a supernatural extension to the natural world we know (which is unbelievable even to me). Because of this, faith in God and faith in the existence of hell must come at the exact same time, meaning there is no room for your fear of hell to drive you to madness. How do I know all this? Because I believe in hell and God and you believe in neither. Hebrews 11:1 says, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Faith is my evidence. You may not understand. I pray you will receive the Holy Spirit who will open your eyes. You can pray also: “Dear God, help me to have faith in you.” Jesus died so that you might enter the circle of experiencing true love, faith and hope. There's only one way to learn how to race--to get on the race track. Jesus is the door onto the track. Accept his sacrifice for your shortcomings (in loving, hoping, and having faith) and he will let you through.