While We're At It.....

[A Theist]

I think you make a decent point, however one study found alcohol to be involved in 34% of all murders. That's an enormous percentage of murders, alcohol can almost certainly increase or even cause criminal intent, something that guns are incapable of doing.

Can you link the study? Its no big deal, but I like to look at data.

Anyway, I disagree that guns are incapable of giving a person enough confidence to commit a murder. A person with a gun on his hands may feel empowered enough to face another that otherwise avoid without said gun.

"Anyway, I disagree that guns are incapable of giving a person enough confidence to commit a murder. A person with a gun on his hands may feel empowered enough to face another that otherwise avoid without said gun."....That very thing is said of alcohol...hence the term, "liquid courage".

[Ryantology]

"Drunk driving fatalities are tragic accidents. I'm not willing to bet there are many people who plan, in advance, to drive drunk and cause a multi-car pileup which kills people."....however unintended, people who drink and drive are aware of the potential consequences even before they get behind the wheel of a vehicle....I don't consider them guiltless.

I don't consider them guiltless, either. In fact, I have a specifically venomous dislike for people who abuse alcohol, especially when it results in tragedy. However, I have a much stronger dislike for a person who uses a gun to murder other people because that does not happen by accident (of course, there are plenty of people who die accidentally due to guns, as well).

"Mass shootings never happen by accident."...and even more violence can be attributed to alcohol....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11...21900.html

Notable in that report is that one of the causes blamed is poor control policies. Missing from it is a distinction between deaths due to alcohol-fueled violence and deaths due to the effects it has on one's health, which is interesting because there is certain to be significant overlap with alcohol violence and gun violence.

"Don't get me wrong, I do not favor a repeal of the second amendment, but I do believe that firearms should be heavily restricted "...seeing that alcohol can be attributed to more death and violence than drugs and guns combined, would you also favor heavily restricting the use and purchasing and selling of alcohol as well?

Absolutely. But, I do not favor prohibition. It's a much trickier subject than guns, which are designed specifically to maim or kill.

[A Theist]

"Don't get me wrong, I do not favor a repeal of the second amendment, but I do believe that firearms should be heavily restricted "...seeing that alcohol can be attributed to more death and violence than drugs and guns combined, would you also favor heavily restricting the use and purchasing and selling of alcohol as well?

Already been tried, and still (to some extent) in effect. Didn't work (still doesn't work). Hilariously, it's at least marginally more difficult to get your hands on a 6 pack of beer (as a minor) than it is to get your hands on narcotics or an automatic rifle. Neither the drug or the arms dealer is going to ask you for ID. Theyre both clearly willing to provide the service you're seeking (it's their business, after all) while the store clerk may require some "coaxing"......

Ha! no no.....when I was 16 $5 bucks at the local carry out would get us a 12 pack of beer, a pint of wine and a pack of cigarettes...five bucks at that time was a decent amount of pocket change...we would give the check out clerk $5 dollars to pocket for himself and he would put the beer and wine along with the cigarettes in a paper bag and take it out back to the dumpster with the trash where we would be waiting for it...not a problem for teens to get hold of alcohol, especially if your parents drink too.

[Annik]

Well, alcohol is far more harmful to the body than marijuana is, but we've seen where prohibition gets us. Prohibition was the invitation that gave the US organized crime. It would be a mistake to outlaw it, just as it's a mistake to keep marijuana outlawed. If you want to combat drug abuse and addiction, you need to teach kids how they can give themselves natural highs when they are young (such as acing a test or winning a race). It makes them less likely to get addicted to drugs. Also, more education never hurts. Not drug education, good ole fashion reading, writing and arithmetic (haha). Maybe low-income drug abusers and addicts start because their lives are horrible. Everyone around them was born on that street, grew up there and then died without being able to make something of themselves. Education is a wonderful tool to motivate people into better lives. How many Einsteins and Sagans have we missed out on because they didn't finish school or their schooling was substandard? To sum up, the drug problem is best resolved through education, children with tools to "make their own drugs" from their natural brain chemistry and removing the stigma on drug use. Open-mindedness and communication is the best weapon we have against drug abuse.

[CapnAwesome]

I think you make a decent point, however one study found alcohol to be involved in 34% of all murders. That's an enormous percentage of murders, alcohol can almost certainly increase or even cause criminal intent, something that guns are incapable of doing.

Can you link the study? Its no big deal, but I like to look at data.

Anyway, I disagree that guns are incapable of giving a person enough confidence to commit a murder. A person with a gun on his hands may feel empowered enough to face another that otherwise avoid without said gun.

For some reason I can't get the original link to work, but here is a similar study that I found and some information about what I originally saw. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/ac.pdf

Here is some direct information with studies cited, I'm not sure if they are available online anywhere.

A recent survey of Canadian federal inmates found that 39% of assault offenders
reported being under the influence of alcohol at the time of the crime; with 34% of those
who committed homicide and 30% of those who attempted murder reporting that they
were under the influence at the time of the offence
(Pernanen, Cousineau, Brochu, & Sun, 2002).

Recent data from the United States suggests that about 30% of assaults involve alcohol (without other drugs) and 40 to 50% of violent crimes involve alcohol or a combination of alcohol and drugs (Beck et al.,1993; Harlow, 1998).

Alcohol was used by the aggressor in 50% of cases of spousal assault, and 38% of child abuse cases in Ontario (Addiction Research Foundation, 1994).


The problem with saying that holding a gun gives you a feeling of empowerment that makes you want to kill people is that a gun doesn't contain any sort of chemicals. I don't doubt that such a feeling could happen, as gambling can be addictive, but I view that as the fault of the person not the gun. Anyway, I think that A Theists original point that alcohol kills people and guns kill people is a valid comparison.

[A Theist]

"Drunk driving fatalities are tragic accidents. I'm not willing to bet there are many people who plan, in advance, to drive drunk and cause a multi-car pileup which kills people."....however unintended, people who drink and drive are aware of the potential consequences even before they get behind the wheel of a vehicle....I don't consider them guiltless.

I don't consider them guiltless, either. In fact, I have a specifically venomous dislike for people who abuse alcohol, especially when it results in tragedy. However, I have a much stronger dislike for a person who uses a gun to murder other people because that does not happen by accident (of course, there are plenty of people who die accidentally due to guns, as well).

"Mass shootings never happen by accident."...and even more violence can be attributed to alcohol....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11...21900.html

Notable in that report is that one of the causes blamed is poor control policies. Missing from it is a distinction between deaths due to alcohol-fueled violence and deaths due to the effects it has on one's health, which is interesting because there is certain to be significant overlap with alcohol violence and gun violence.

"Don't get me wrong, I do not favor a repeal of the second amendment, but I do believe that firearms should be heavily restricted "...seeing that alcohol can be attributed to more death and violence than drugs and guns combined, would you also favor heavily restricting the use and purchasing and selling of alcohol as well?

Absolutely. But, I do not favor prohibition. It's a much trickier subject than guns, which are designed specifically to maim or kill.

"Missing from it is a distinction between deaths due to alcohol-fueled violence and deaths due to the effects it has on one's health, which is interesting because there is certain to be significant overlap with alcohol violence and gun violence.....Here's a report that's more thorough....

"Alcohol related injuries and deaths in the United States is a major problem that has seen little improvement over the last decade. In fact, alcohol related car accidents kill more people between the ages of 17 and 34 than any other cause. Alcohol is also closely associated with homicides, suicides , workplace injuries, domestic violence, assault, and complications and death resulting from alcohol related disease like cirrhosis of the liver. Understanding the potentially injurious or fatal risks that people take when they drink is essential to creating an educated public that is more cognizant of the need for self-control over alcohol....While most adults in the country are probably aware that alcohol related car accidents are a serious problem, few are aware that the physical risks taken just by drinking are severe enough that thousands of people die from conditions related to alcoholism every year. According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, there are more than 23,000 deaths related to alcohol each year that are not traffic fatalities or homicides, and 14,406 of those are caused by alcoholic liver disease.(2) Adding these totals to just the total number of drunk driving fatalities alone and we can see that nearly 47,000 deaths occur as a result of these alcohol related causes alone."

http://recoveryfirst.org/alcohol-related...e-us.html/

[The Grand Nudger]

Ha! no no.....when I was 16 $5 bucks at the local carry out would get us a 12 pack of beer, a pint of wine and a pack of cigarettes...five bucks at that time was a decent amount of pocket change...we would give the check out clerk $5 dollars to pocket for himself and he would put the beer and wine along with the cigarettes in a paper bag and take it out back to the dumpster with the trash where we would be waiting for it...not a problem for teens to get hold of alcohol, especially if your parents drink too.

When I was young and dinosaurs roamed the earth.........[insert anecdote here]. The drug/arms dealer has no need for subterfuge, he doesn't clandestinely deposit your contraband in a dumpster...he just hands it to you. You know why? Because he doesn't give a fuck.