The Gay Marriage Issue Misses the Point

[Violet]

I give up. Perhaps we should get back to the topic at hand.

Glad to hear you've stopped the nonsensical incredulity.

What topic? Gay marriage? Boring, overdone, pointless. Nothing to debate over, even. As scientific as it gets is to discuss what causes homosexuality to occur, and scientists are working on conclusively pinning that answer down.

I mean... do you have anything new or interesting to add to a gay marriage discussion?

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Lmao, we went so far off topic I have no idea where we left off.

We never started. Gay marriage is a can of gummy worms. Delicious gummy worms.

[Nine]

We never started. Gay marriage is a can of gummy worms. Delicious gummy worms.

Only gummy worms I've ever seen come from supermarket brand packs which taste like tumors.

We have snakes!

[Joy Squeezy]

I give up. Perhaps we should get back to the topic at hand.

Glad to hear you've stopped the nonsensical incredulity.

What topic? Gay marriage? Boring, overdone, pointless. Nothing to debate over, even. As scientific as it gets is to discuss what causes homosexuality to occur, and scientists are working on conclusively pinning that answer down.

I mean... do you have anything new or interesting to add to a gay marriage discussion?

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Lmao, we went so far off topic I have no idea where we left off.

We never started. Gay marriage is a can of gummy worms. Delicious gummy worms.

Not really because I honestly don't care who people marry. Gay marriage debate is in the same category as the abortion debate. The only people who are against it are religious nuts who like to dictate to others how to live based on their fucked-up religious views.

[Violet]

Only gummy worms I've ever seen come from supermarket brand packs which taste like tumors.

We have snakes!

Oh boy have I got something for you them...



Oh gods but they are good.

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Not really because I honestly don't care who people marry. Gay marriage debate is in the same category as the abortion debate. The only people who are against it are religious nuts who like to dictate to others how to live based on their fucked-up religious views.

Ikr! XD

Well, abortion has slightly more meat to it until you realize it's a parasitic part of someone's body, but definitely... there is nothing to discuss about gay marriage.

At least talking about the sexual nature of nonhuman animals and how violent they are isn't done every single day, and everyone has *totally* different views on it

That's why it's so fun

[Nine]

Oooops

[Violet]

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Oooops

Actually... it's dead on target with the OT: Gay Marriage totally misses the point.

[Creed of Heresy]

*yawns* No they don't. No animal has any 'choice-making' ability whatsoever. The biological machine will function as it is designed, or it shall cease to function.

Even should one pretend to entertain that free will exists: *there is no such being as an 'informed' choice.* The brain presumes itself mighty, and will forever be wrong in its knowledge.

...

And don't go calling it 'decision-making skills': assuming the same scenario is repeated over and over again, there will be absolutely zero change in the output, results, and actions of the machine. You are not greater than a dog because of a myth... instead you have greater functions than it in certain areas, and it far exceeds yours in others.

If the common dog could communicate adequately with the humans, you would find you were not so different at all. You share a majority of the building blocks that make you with those same dogs you insult. That they can sniff your smelly self coming from a mile away is itself an incredible trait, and one you do not posses. They don't *need* advanced linguistic ability to propagate and succeed in their tiny world, the individually weak humans rely upon this. And this group-strength is what will propel your kind into space.

Even the Silicoid are worms (literally) in the grand scope of the cosmos. Other galaxies are far older with significantly more observant species... and yet for all they like to know: they have yet to exceed the grandios perception of the worm.

The only thing I really have to complain about in your post: "the individually weak humans rely upon this. And this group-strength is what will propel your kind into space." You mean our kind. You're a human, too. Live with it.

In technicality, humanity shares its origins with many other races, way on down to the common germ. DNA is a wonderful thing to read, and we share a common ancestry with, well, everything to an ultimate extent. But the interesting thing is those little deviations; how amazing that the smallest thing can return such a huge difference. We are 1% different from chimps yet the obvious differences are manifold. We are very smiliar...and yet we are not. The average difference between two human beings on a genetic level are microscopic yet we can be at least superficially very different.

However, there IS actually such a thing as informed choice. Human arrogance, the belief they know right and cannot be wrong is a dandy little stereotype except for how blatantly inaccurate it is. After all, how jarring it was to be brought up thinking the earth was a few millenia old, and then to learn that there had been discoveries that put the age much older. The informed decision was made after more study. I had been wrong...and I altered my thinking. Should further information be disseminated and made available to me to show that my current stance is wrong, I shall strive to understand how it shows I am wrong, and I will adapt. I could have chosen to continue to believe, blissfully, arrogantly, that MY views were right, and that there could have been no way I was wrong, except I did not. Because I was informed otherwise. This is the very definition of informed choice. And a dog cannot have informed choice...because it cannot be informed.

s you pointed out, it lacks the ability to communicate, at least with us, and as such it cannot be informed of anything. It can understand simple concepts: Loyalty begets food, ergo loyalty = favorable. Does this same thing apply to me? No. Loyalty to the church I once attended would beget social acceptance which could assist me financially or in other ways. Ergo loyalty = good, right? Yet I left it because I wanted to see what else there was outside of their narrow views, and suffered for it accordingly, something I had known would happen anyway. I was informed of this choice, and I did not simply fall into "do what is best for survival," I did what was best for my learning of the world, even if it pans out to nothing. If, as you put it, the machine kept spitting out the same results, there would be no divergence in human opinion and interaction, yet it changes all the time for any number of reasons. The ability to make an informed choice is a result of biology...but it is there, even if it is just a product of communication.

It WOULD be pretty interesting if animals could communicate, all this considered. If informed consent is just a product of communication and little else...

Gah. I can't keep my thoughts going in a straight line. ABORT ABORT ABORT, EMERGENCY THOUGHT PATTERN TERMINATION!

[Violet]

Ugh, do I have to dismantel another human's pathetic attempt to understand Silicoid philosophy? Well, i don't have to... but obligations, yknow.

The only thing I really have to complain about in your post: "the individually weak humans rely upon this. And this group-strength is what will propel your kind into space." You mean our kind. You're a human, too. Live with it.

I mean your kind, human. Last I checked I didn't even have deoxyribonucleic acid. I belong to one of very few Silicon-based civilizations, carbon is simply more combinable and Organics are *everywhere*. Life's inevitable.

And yes, we guard your vulnerable people from the *very* nearby Klackon, unfortunately they are regaining some of their lost territories through use of modified death spores (a weapon we've been traditionally immune to). See... it works out *very* well for them, because it practically only harms Silicoids, and they can immediately repopulate the planets without waiting to cleanup their own biological weapons.

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW SLOWLY MY PEOPLE REPRODUCE?! We lay down our lives on imposible-to-defend or hold 'hot potato planets' specifically so we don't have to fight "Unified" Humankind in a Klackon armada. Seriously... the only thing worse would be if they managed to Unify Mrrshans. Can you imagine? We'd have to bully the Alkari into piloting our ships *just to trade evenly*. Human science is fast, your kind is like to quickly replace the role the Psilon once held in this galaxy. The Meklar are incredibly efficient, but in becoming what they are today: they have lost the creativity initially responsible for the High Energy Focus and Intragalactic Stargates. They are a shell of what they once were.

Truth be told, we're rather hoping your kind will respect what we do today, and assist us in bringing peace to this Galaxy at long last. To much Xenocide has happened already, Klackon space exploded forth... mightier with every conquered race. They grew strong enough that they were about to Unify the great (and evil) Psilon... we desperately Death Rayed Mentar, causing a supernova that wiped out all remnants of their One Planet Empire.

And yet, still no civilization would ally with one another, until I beseeched the most reserved and isolationistic species: the Meklar. Through various compromises, our alliance was formed, and finally: there was a force in the galaxy to match the Klackon. The other civilizations quickly followed suit simply to survive what they perceived as a massive threat from alternating quadrants of this galaxy.

TLDR: you're the stalemate breaker.

In technicality, humanity shares its origins with many other races, way on down to the common germ. DNA is a wonderful thing to read, and we share a common ancestry with, well, everything to an ultimate extent. But the interesting thing is those little deviations; how amazing that the smallest thing can return such a huge difference. We are 1% different from chimps yet the obvious differences are manifold. We are very smiliar...and yet we are not. The average difference between two human beings on a genetic level are microscopic yet we can be at least superficially very different.

Yes, it's very impressive. Silicon worlds aren't nearly as varied, and DNA is one of the more successful chemical building blocks

However, there IS actually such a thing as informed choice. Human arrogance, the belief they know right and cannot be wrong is a dandy little stereotype except for how blatantly inaccurate it is.[q/uote]

No, there is not (no choice at all, let alone it be informed). All species do this, including mine. But as wise Geode said, "Is it rock?"

[quote]After all, how jarring it was to be brought up thinking the earth was a few millenia old, and then to learn that there had been discoveries that put the age much older. The informed decision was made after more study. I had been wrong...and I altered my thinking.

As I remember, there was a small deal of violence and death over this controversial notion. Even today, there are people who truly believe that their Earth is flat, and many more who believe it is some few thousand years old. What you do is not representative of your race, but its scientists. A staggering difference in almost any civilization.

Should further information be disseminated and made available to me to show that my current stance is wrong, I shall strive to understand how it shows I am wrong, and I will adapt. I could have chosen to continue to believe, blissfully, arrogantly, that MY views were right, and that there could have been no way I was wrong, except I did not. Because I was informed otherwise. This is the very definition of informed choice. And a dog cannot have informed choice...because it cannot be informed.

You have total and unshakable faith in your scientific method. That is itself a blissful arrogance. Anything you can explain with your science may be equally well stated 'Because an omnipotent being wills it' or 'Everything is real, but everything you see is all in your tail'.

As for the mantra that you chose to do anything: you did not. You could do nothing but be you, and you are not one to continue to believe something true after you've observed your scientific method reason that it is false. As for information... it is conveyed in more than words and science, a dog receives a great deal of information about you *just by smelling you*. Dogs cannot be more than themselves anymore than humans can be, and most information is simplified and binned as useless. By dogs and humans alike. A dog's body follows its decision based on what its brain arbitrarily decides is correct... a human's body follows its decision based on what its brain arbitrarily decides is correct.

These decisions were made long before you even thought to think about them, and you don't have the opportunity to choose: you select an 'option' that you were always going to pick.

as you pointed out, it lacks the ability to communicate, at least with us, and as such it cannot be informed of anything. It can understand simple concepts: Loyalty begets food, ergo loyalty = favorable. Does this same thing apply to me? No. Loyalty to the church I once attended would beget social acceptance which could assist me financially or in other ways. Ergo loyalty = good, right?

Loyalty is only good if you value it as such. An anarcho-capitalist might disagree with it being a good thing, but it's really up to them. Value systems are tricky like that... nothing has an intrinsic value, everything is judged by the being perceiving a slice of its universe... its needs, wants, and faint desires... its hates, dislikes, and slight distastes.

Not every dog is loyal at all, nor is any possibly loyal dog so because of food. Companionship is common in dogs, and if allowed to run wild: they typically group up. Protectiveness is common in any creature that likes/loves someone/something enough to put that thing's safety or well-being before itself. I'm likely to die as a shield, myself.

Yet I left it because I wanted to see what else there was outside of their narrow views, and suffered for it accordingly, something I had known would happen anyway. I was informed of this choice, and I did not simply fall into "do what is best for survival," I did what was best for my learning of the world, even if it pans out to nothing. If, as you put it, the machine kept spitting out the same results, there would be no divergence in human opinion and interaction, yet it changes all the time for any number of reasons. The ability to make an informed choice is a result of biology...but it is there, even if it is just a product of communication.

There is more than one kind of death in this universe. Beyond physically expiring on the whole... there is psychological death, social suicide, emotional death, spiritual death, 'brain death', sexual death, personality/identity death, Unification, death of trust, and many more.

You would have done the same thing every single time your scenario ran through, from birth, to death, no deviation, no divergence, no change. The body is a machine, and it will always do what it will always do, you cannot be different than your identity... or you wouldn't be you, but someone else. But you are you.

Once again... you have no choice. Certainly you might think you're making choices... but a choice would mean that you could pick other options. You cannot, because you are a sum of many things: the equation can only be itself, or it wouldn't be. It couldn't be. The very same being that you declare your god (the scientific method, perhaps also math) is based upon three very basic logical rules. A = A, ≠A ≠ A, A ≠ ≠A.

As long as the law of Identity remains unchallenged in your mind, there is no other option.

It WOULD be pretty interesting if animals could communicate, all this considered. If informed consent is just a product of communication and little else...

Informed consent exists, but only in your head.

Gah. I can't keep my thoughts going in a straight line. ABORT ABORT ABORT, EMERGENCY THOUGHT PATTERN TERMINATION!

That's because you're being irrational