Earth - Proof of God?

[Jackalope]

Did you own a bible durning this period? Did you read it? Did you have access to a church? Did you attend? Did you ask questions?
If you answered yes to any of these questions, then how can you say nothing was revealed? Even the most devout atheist see the bible as a list of sins. How can you read a bible and not see something your doing that would be identified as sin?

[Drich]

I draw your attention to this "Drich"'s attempt to argue that if christians burned a witch, it is the witch's fault.

Of course if the witches burned him, I think he should just suck it up and be grateful for the flame.

I knew I should have connected the dots a little more clearly for the slower among you. Let me clear things up by asking you to provide Book Chapter and verse that commands Christians to burn witches. if none can be found then "Christians" did not burned a witch. But what do you do? You go on a witch hunt of your own and blame Christians even though this was clearly not a biblically sanctioned act. Do you truly not see the Irony?

[Cyberman]

Did you knock?(Did you repeat your effort)

Dozens if not hundreds of times over a period of years. I didn't seek God out of a desire to avoid divine retribution, I did so out of a desire to live righteously as God wanted.

This is the thing about these kinds of claims. They are presented as something testable - ask (or A/S/K, if you insist) and all will be revealed. When someone actually does as instructed and nothing happens, it's because they weren't sincere enough, or they gave up before getting an answer, or some other unjustified (since you weren't there) conclusion. But as CD said he repeated the experiment many, many times and with as much sincerity as he felt motivated him; and yielded the same results every time.

To put it in plainer terms, imagine a friend gave you the 'phone number of a specially-trained counsellor/adviser who you are told will help you through some crisis in your life. This adviser, you are told, has already helped thousands of anonymous people sort their lives out with free and perfect advice and all you have to do is give him a call. Consequently, you ring the number and wait, but all you hear is the ringtone over and over again. You let it ring while you wait for an answer. Hours later you are still waiting for the call to be picked up. You hang up and check with your friend who assures you the number is completely correct and urges you to keep trying, so next day you try again. And the next. And the next. "Dozens if not hundreds of times over a period of years."

What is the most reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from the experiment: your friend was lying to you; the adviser is in the office but for reasons of his own refuses to answer the 'phone; he's in the office but for reasons of his own cannot answer the 'phone; the adviser is not there.

[Drich]

Did you own a bible durning this period? Did you read it? Did you have access to a church? Did you attend? Did you ask questions?
If you answered yes to any of these questions, then how can you say nothing was revealed? Even the most devout atheist see the bible as a list of sins. How can you read a bible and not see something your doing that would be identified as sin?

The Identification of Sin is the first revelation of God we all get. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV) starting at verse 16 through the end of the chapter.

If you are faithful to this revelation (and repent) you will be given more.

You only think the goal post have been moved, because you have dismissed the revelation God gave you, in hopes of something more grand.

Read the story about the Talents Christ tells in Mat 25 starting at verse 13:http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat%2025&version=NKJV

This story tells us if we are faithful to what God has given us, he will give us more, however if we are not what we do have will be taken and given to someone who is faithful.

Applying this to the revelations of the holy Spirit if we are faithful to the first revelation the spirit gives us, then we will be given deeper more involved understanding, and so on till our 'cups' run over.

[catfish]

And what if this "revelation" tells a person that the Bible is full of fabrications and then the Bible actually confirms the fabrications?
.

[Drich]

This is the thing about these kinds of claims. They are presented as something testable - ask (or A/S/K, if you insist) and all will be revealed.

Who said ALL Will Be Revealed? I have only ever told you guys that you will be given a measure of the Holy Spirit. If you put this in terms of the story of the talents you are not likly to be the one who receives 10 talents up front. You are to look for the one talent and put it to use so that you can be found worthy of more. Don't look for "all will be revealed" because you will only be upset at where God actually starts you, and bury your gift like the servant in the story did.

When someone actually does as instructed and nothing happens, it's because they weren't sincere enough, or they gave up before getting an answer, or some other unjustified (since you weren't there) conclusion.

Again Sincerity does not play a factor. It comes down to did you do what God asked or did you do what you wanted to do?

But as CD said he repeated the experiment many, many times and with as much sincerity as he felt motivated him; and yielded the same results every time.

But he did not do what God asked of him. If God says do X and CD does Y and Z very sincerly does it mean by default X gets accomplished? No it does not. The only thing it means is CD had a heart for doing Y and Z. Meanwhile "X" (What God has told us to do) gets ignored because 'we Feel' we've done enough. what gives us the right to make this judgement? In a word it's "Pride." It is for this very same reason "Y and Z" are not good enough. Y and Z are the proud man's response to what God has asked us to do (Even if we are sincere.) that is why God has told us to do X. For it takes a Humble heart to forgo the Y and Z we want to do, and do the X God has told us to do. That what this whole thing is about. Humbling ourselves before the Lord and allowing Him to lift us up.

This all boils down to did you do it God's way or did you do it yours? If God prizes a humble Heart, why would He reward a proud one no matter how sincere it was?

---

And what if this "revelation" tells a person that the Bible is full of fabrications and then the Bible actually confirms the fabrications?
.

Then I would tell that person two things. 1) God is not the only one who can "give revelations." 2) start a new thread and lets see how well someone of those 'revelations' hold up against someone who knows how to use a lexicon.

[Cyberman]

You didn't need to use a thousand words when just two would say exactly the same thing: special pleading.

[Drich]

You didn't need to use a thousand words when just two would say exactly the same thing: special pleading.

can you explain how you think this is a case of special pleading?

My understanding of the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading
would indicate that someone looking for God to accept "Y/Z" simply because they felt sincere about it when they did it When God has commanded that we do "X" is the Special pleading here. In otherwords, We have a standard "X" and the sincere Y/Z efforts would be the special pleading in this case. Or is that what you meant?

[catfish]

And what if this "revelation" tells a person that the Bible is full of fabrications and then the Bible actually confirms the fabrications?
.

Then I would tell that person two things. 1) God is not the only one who can "give revelations." 2) start a new thread and lets see how well someone of those 'revelations' hold up against someone who knows how to use a lexicon.

What good would a lexicon be if it was derived from fabricated stories?
.

[Cyberman]

can you explain how you think this is a case of special pleading?

Certainly. In this case, you have urged anyone interested to follow the instructions you say are written in scripture to obtain enlightenment, or whatever phrase you want to plug in there. Doing so in the manner you say you have done will yield the stated results. CD and others have explained that they have done just as you say, not once and then giving up but persisting in it for many years, without any result. To them, this means there is nothing to find and nothing to ask, or at least that the prescribed method does not work. To you, it means that they did something wrong, though you base this conclusion on the lack of result rather than knowledge of what they actually did (since you could not possibly know). In other words, it looks like this:

D: Hey, try pressing this button; you get chocolate!
CD: [presses button] It doesn't seem to work.
D: Oh, it works alright. Try pressing harder!
CD: [presses harder] Nope.
D: Come on - you nearly had it!
[CD keeps pressing; nothing happens]
D: You've got to want it more than that! Maybe you just don't believe enough!

Ten years later...

D: ... Oh, come on, you're just not trying!
CD: This damn thing's got to be broken!
D: Well, it worked for me. Obviously you didn't want chocolate in the first place.

And so on. Special pleading. The button works every time, but only if your heart is pure, you really want it to work, you press it precisely as it wants to be pressed etc etc etc.