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RE: Argument from perpetual identity against naturalism.
March 19, 2013 at 9:21 am
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2013 at 9:21 am by The Grand Nudger.)
It would be difficult to argue that you were the same person (without resorting to the similarity of construct - as you put it) as we ticked off the cells that you are comprised of, would it not?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Argument from perpetual identity against naturalism.
March 19, 2013 at 9:24 am
(March 19, 2013 at 9:21 am)Rhythm Wrote: It would be difficult to argue that you were the same person (without resorting to the similarity of construct - as you put it) as we ticked off the cells that you are comprised of, would it not?
It depends on your world view. Supernatural perspective, that isn't a problem.
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RE: Argument from perpetual identity against naturalism.
March 19, 2013 at 9:33 am
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2013 at 9:34 am by The Grand Nudger.)
There we have it, the unspoken assumption of the supernatural. If thats going to be part of your reasoning you may as well include it in your description of the process that led you to the conclusion eh?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Argument from perpetual identity against naturalism.
March 19, 2013 at 5:30 pm
If I was to set to prove we have a perpetual identity, I would have to prove the supernatural exists (from my perspective). But I am out to prove naturalism false, but, it takes belief in two assumptions: 1) If naturalism true, most of humanity would not have knowledge of having a perpetual identity. 2) Most of humanity does have knowledge of having a perpetual identity.
As I stated, these can't be proven by debate, but I feel most people will be convinced of axiom 2, and axiom 1 can be argued for or even recognized directly. But axiom 2 cannot be falsified simply by asserting naturalism to be true.
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RE: Argument from perpetual identity against naturalism.
March 19, 2013 at 5:37 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2013 at 5:40 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I've seen alot of this recently, we might not want to confuse what we are personally incapable of/unwilling to prove with what -can be/cannot be- proven.
Why would you have to prove that the supernatural exists to prove that we have a perpetual identity? Your perspective would only be relevant if it were accurate, even so, the supernatural could exist and still be unconnected to our "perpetual identity". Even if "some things" were magical, that wouldn't lead to "this thing" being magical by default.
1. Why would it take belief, wouldn't it be better to demonstrate that this were the case, rather than defer to a requirement of belief?
2. And?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Argument from perpetual identity against naturalism.
March 19, 2013 at 5:50 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2013 at 5:53 pm by Mystic.)
You can't prove a properly basic knowledge to be a properly basic knowledge by debate. That's simply it's nature as far as I can tell.
In stating most humans know they are a perpetual identity, I am stating it's a properly basic knowledge. How can I prove that? Well perhaps if I can prove God, I can, but I don't think you can.
If it lied in a complicated philosophical/psychological explanation, then I would say it's impossible most of humanity knew on that basis.
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RE: Argument from perpetual identity against naturalism.
March 19, 2013 at 5:53 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2013 at 5:54 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You're sure that the notion of a perpetual identity is a properly basic belief? Or that 1 and 2 are properly basic beliefs......?
(you'd be wrong on every count if you were)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Argument from perpetual identity against naturalism.
March 19, 2013 at 5:56 pm
(March 19, 2013 at 5:53 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You're sure that the notion of a perpetual identity is a properly basic belief? Or that 1 and 2 are properly basic beliefs......?
Yes, a child has it without deep reflection. It's taken for granted.
I would say from my perspective, reasoning is rooted and one, and it branches out.
Reasoning is not limited to logic, it gives purpose in moral things as well. It also gives value to human beings in a properly basic manner.
When we say everything must be proven by explanation, we are saying we cannot know anything without explanation.
Therefore if this is true, you shouldn't be able to condemn anyone.
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RE: Argument from perpetual identity against naturalism.
March 19, 2013 at 5:58 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2013 at 6:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Unfortunately, the notion of a perpetual identity relies upon other assumptions or acceptance of other statements or beliefs as justification. Namely, the existence of an identity or self to begin with.
It doesn't qualify.
(wheres my hug apo?)
I say this with the friendliest smile on my face - I'm not okay with allowing you to excuse laziness by invoking "properly basic belief", specifically when the thing your excusing is no such thing.
Do work.
I'm a human who knows no such thing, btw. Sure, I have this nagging perception that I have a perpetual identity, but I know better than to let my perceptions take me for a ride.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Argument from perpetual identity against naturalism.
March 19, 2013 at 6:04 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2013 at 6:05 pm by Mystic.)
Hehe, Rhythm. It's always a pleasure talking to you. I'm off to the gym. Will try to explain more about properly basic beliefs/knowledge.
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