Are you for or against the separation of church and state?

[Godscreated]

Jesus said thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, who are you that you believe you can demand something from the God of creation. You want proof of God then don't be so lazy and find it as scripture says possible. I'm not going to fall into this little selfish trap that has been tried here numerous times.

Sorry - but YOU are quoting the fairy tales of the bible -Jesus is a religious myth created by the religion - not an actual person -

And being fairy tales - your statement in no way provides and answer to the request. IT is A con man who says - believe me =- without proof =-you do not have the right to request proof.

BUT -- we DO have the right to request undeniable proof - and none has ever materialized from you

SO - your god remains a fiction of yours - nothing more

You know this how? As far as I'm concerned the God of creation personally presented Himself to the Israelites and thus proof of God was given. You have no way to disprove this presentation, so until you do I see no need to prove something that was proven thousands of years ago.

[Dragonetti]

Religion has not place in politics! If you want to see what religion has done in the political spectrum. Look at Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, and history. Islamic States are the current focus, as I believe they are going through their own Dark Age. Christians/Catholics have had their Dark Age, which brought progression and innovation to a halt.

Religion is bad for politics, because it will lead to persecution to those that do not follow the same religious beliefs.

[The Grand Nudger]

[Godscreated]

Scripture tells us this is against the will of God, knowing this I would not be able to pray for that, and since you do not believe you most certainly can not. God's laid out a plan from before time and he's not changing things up for your petty and selfish ways.

So it's "petty and selfish" to make a sincere plea to god to reveal himself, because it's against his will? And you don't see how transparent your claim is?

Doesn't it feel frustrating to realize that you have to make up so many excuses for why god won't reveal himself, to the extent of considering it petty and selfish to want it? You've made up a shy, miserable little god who won't show himself, and who resents so much as a request that he stand up for his believers and save the lives of billions. And then you try to convince yourself that he's 'good' and 'loving,' even though he created a "plan from before time" that won't save more than a relative handful of people that he condemned.

First off your subjective assumption as to the number of saved is irrational and unfounded, you need to bring proof of your claim.
I make no excuses for God, don't need to, He's able to take care of Himself and maybe He'll show himself to you. Let me ask you a question do you want God to come to you and save you? This is a simple question that should have a simple answer.
The way you explain things leads me to believe you had Calvinist influences in your life.

[Godscreated]

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So it's "petty and selfish" to make a sincere plea to god to reveal himself, because it's against his will? And you don't see how transparent your claim is?

Doesn't it feel frustrating to realize that you have to make up so many excuses for why god won't reveal himself, to the extent of considering it petty and selfish to want it? You've made up a shy, miserable little god who won't show himself, and who resents so much as a request that he stand up for his believers and save the lives of billions. And then you try to convince yourself that he's 'good' and 'loving,' even though he created a "plan from before time" that won't save more than a relative handful of people that he condemned.

---

.... GC made reference to a scripture in Luke 4 (and Matthew) where the devil was tempting Jesus to prove himself. Jesus then quotes Dueteronomy, saying "It is said, "Do not put the Lord thy God to the test".

That's correct

However, in Matthew 14, Peter asks Jesus to prove himself, and Jesus does:

Incorrect.

25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.

27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”

28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”

29 “Come,” he said.

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

You have a comprehension problem don't you, I'm sorry I did not realize you had this problem, why I'm not sure. However, you need to be careful when driving, wouldn't want you to injure someone because you come upon a stop sign and forget what it means, please do be careful.
When you are able to overcome this problem we'll be able to have some kind of a discussion about scripture that will not confuse you.

Besides this contradiction, I provided 3 carefully selected scripture for GC to negate his reasoning for not agreeing to my terms:

The first one was to show that people of faith are supposed to be able to tap into the power of god on command.

I gave you viable reasoning, you didn't want to accept it, that's not my fault.
Referring to the mustard seed, Christ wasn't telling His disciples that they should move mountains if they had that small amount of faith. Christ was teaching them with such a small amount of faith God could work great spiritual wonders through them, and that's exactly what happened with them.
I understand that comprehension thing you have.

The second one was to demonstrate a man of faith calling on god to reveal him in order to prove his claims about god.

The third one showed god encouraging his follower to make claims about him that he would then support with a demonstration of power.

Both of these scriptural events were planned by God, not Moses or Elijah, they were demonstrating what God could do when they had the faith of a mustard seed, and it happened. Thought I would let you know so you would not have to struggle with that comprehension thing, wouldn't want you to further damage that brain of yours.

At the end of the day, GC has no good reason to refuse my terms other than the fact that both he and I know that god doesn't exist, and that he will be made to look foolish even trying to verify god's existence.

Well here it's the beginning of a new day, but anyway I've now given even more reasonable answers to refuse your childish terms. Why want you go to the scriptures and do as they say, I mean you're so afraid there's a God and you will miss out and are afraid the atheist here will make fun of you doing it own your own.

[Ryantology]

I A/S/Ked years ago, which as you say, will lead you to the truth. You are right, because I found no god and all the evidence supports that conclusion.

[Tonus]

First off your subjective assumption as to the number of saved is irrational and unfounded, you need to bring proof of your claim.

There are some seven billion people on this planet. Around five billion of them do not recognize Jesus Christ as a savior. If the way to god is through Christ, billions of people are not going to find god. Do you consider that to be irrational, or unfounded? If so, why?

I make no excuses for God, don't need to, He's able to take care of Himself and maybe He'll show himself to you. Let me ask you a question do you want God to come to you and save you? This is a simple question that should have a simple answer.

I don't want your god to come to me and save me. I also know that he won't, because he cannot. And that is why you have to make excuses for him. Theists have a seemingly endless list of 'reasons' for why god won't reveal himself to humanity and instead allows people to do horrific things, sometimes even in his own name!

[Godscreated]

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First off your subjective assumption as to the number of saved is irrational and unfounded, you need to bring proof of your claim.

---

There are some seven billion people on this planet. Around five billion of them do not recognize Jesus Christ as a savior. If the way to god is through Christ, billions of people are not going to find god. Do you consider that to be irrational, or unfounded? If so, why?

Where did you get your info, even if it's accurate 2 billion people is far more than a handful as you stated, it's nearly 30%. Your revision of your statement is probably closer to reality.

I make no excuses for God, don't need to, He's able to take care of Himself and maybe He'll show himself to you. Let me ask you a question do you want God to come to you and save you? This is a simple question that should have a simple answer.

I don't want your god to come to me and save me. I also know that he won't, because he cannot. And that is why you have to make excuses for him. Theists have a seemingly endless list of 'reasons' for why god won't reveal himself to humanity and instead allows people to do horrific things, sometimes even in his own name!

You say you do not want God to save you and the rest of those who aren't saved probably feel the same. So why should He force you to live in eternity with Him if that's not your desire or anyone else for that matter. You said He should save those who do not desire it, so why did you change your mind.
Please show me the endless excuses Christians use for God not presenting Himself to man in a way everyone can know He's real.

[Tonus]

Where did you get your info, even if it's accurate 2 billion people is far more than a handful as you stated, it's nearly 30%.

I said a relative handful. When more than 70% of the world's population is in danger of your god's wrath, those who are saved amount to a relative handful.

You say you do not want God to save you and the rest of those who aren't saved probably feel the same. So why should He force you to live in eternity with Him if that's not your desire or anyone else for that matter. You said He should save those who do not desire it, so why did you change your mind.

I did not say that he should save those who do not desire it. My post that started this exchange specifically asked why he would not reveal himself and "provide a path to heaven for all who would believe."

By the way, this is another tactic used by theists when their backs are against the wall. I'm pointing out how illogical it is for the god you worship to hide himself, and you pretend that we both believe that he exists. He cannot force me to do anything, because he doesn't exist. I have no expectations where god is concerned.

Please show me the endless excuses Christians use for God not presenting Himself to man in a way everyone can know He's real.

Well, just in this topic, we have had either a variation or a direct use of these:

- We shouldn't "tempt" god.
- We shouldn't presume to demand something from god.
- We shouldn't be lazy, we should find it ourselves.
- The challenge itself is a 'selfish trap that you won't fall into.'
- God 'doesn't work that way.'
- "You're using scripture in a way that's against God."
- You don't see him because you won't/don't believe.
- God gave proof way back when, it's in the Bible.
- God will do as he pleases, maybe he'll reveal himself, maybe not.
- You have a comprehension problem, when you overcome it, we'll talk.
- You won't accept my reasoning.

I'll stop at those. Those are only yours, and in the past few pages of this topic. They're mostly a variation of "I/God don't have to explain myself/Him to you" or "you can't understand until you learn to look at it the way I do." Those are excuses, you use those phrases as a substitute for a rational consideration of the actions of your god and whether or not they're logical or sensible.

[thesummerqueen]

So...if I were a "parent" (creator) of something, I would want to do my best by them, including offering the sort of help that would keep them out of danger (hell). If that meant revealing myself, I would.

To me, this makes God a horrible 'parent'.