A challenge about women and marriage in Islam

[A_Nony_Mouse]

Can you bring a reference that Islam promotes/allows this?

No I can't - because I didn't say that Islam promotes or allows it. Read what I did say.

Can I provide a reference to what I said? Yes:

• [i]A Saudi man who raped his five-year-old daughter and tortured her to death has been sentenced to pay "blood money" to the mother after having served a short jail term, according to activists.

Was this in a civil or a religious court? And if in the former what does it have to do with Islam?

Civil court is what separation of mosque and state is all about.

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...
All Abrahamic religions are in favor of equal rights for women. Why they are treated differently (you say unfairly) is because God appreciates men and women for their differences, so they both have different roles in religion, like priesthood and child-bearing. I don't know if you consider one of these roles better than the other.

How are rights equal when the father can only treat daughters as wholly owned property? How are rights equal when, according to the Eden story fully adult women who happen to become wives also become the subjects of their husbands?

And before you try the tired, old, obvious response, every wedding ceremony should have a coin toss to see who is in charge.

Rather which idiot invented the idea that anyone had to be in charge?

So instead, rather than persecute genders, religions make them more pronounced. Men and women have unique roles in the world and they complement each other to make it wholesome.

It is incredible in this day and age with all the sources of information that there are people who are so ignorant of the world that they can say such things.

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Con, you need to read the thread. MS has clearly stated that women are worth 1/2 of a man, they should be allowed to be beaten by their husbands, men can have 4 wives, and is still trying to convince people that its a-okay for a 40 year old man to marry a 9 year old girl. Read what ground has been covered before jumping to conclusions. MS isn't your brother because he believes in an Abrahamic religion, he's a sick, twisted man.

If one wishes to make the argument that a woman is worth only half a man because of half and inheritance we must continue the argument and note they are worth nothing at all in Judaism and Christianity as they are not required to have any inheritance.

We can make similar comparisons regarding their value as witnesses to note the same total worthlessness of women.

[Violet]

This is a fallacy. Because, arranged marriages are illegal in the United States. It is consider a violation of human rights. In Islamic Culture, women are view as private property and barter.

No they aren't. Also, divorce exists

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As for the mental part, the human brain isn't fully grown until about the age of 25, so there is no way that she should take on the burdens and responsibilities of a grown woman. So if she doesn't feel like masturbating when she gets so bloody horny at the age of 9, then she is most definitely not ready for sex.

So how about we make a new age line at 25 and tell all of the children that they have to wait until this point to vote or hold autonomy? Seriously... this is like the 15th time someone has used this nonsense in age line defenses.

Someone else argued this hilarity, so: masturbation will happen on its own, no need to force it

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Really? So when someone wants sex, it's readily available? And instead of having sex with someone your own age, you should have sex with someone decades older? Being interested in sex is not the same as wanting to have sex.

Sex is always readily available... all you have to do is lower your damn standards.

And why not have (consensual) sex with someone decades older: it's likely to be a hell of a lot more pleasureful for you, as they probably know what they're doing Someone your age at that point is probably just as terribad as you are

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It wasn't supposed to do that either. As you might have noticed, the youngest to lose their virginity was the Icelanders at 15.6. Where are all your super horny 9-year-olds?

The average age of virginity lossage for icelanders is 15.6. WHAT THIS MEANS is that there are a bunch of people *younger than 15.6* who are losing their virginity in iceland (or every single one loses it at 15.6 in some sort of creepy ass ritual every teenager there is forced to undergo)

9 is unlikely, but it still happens... and plenty of them have developed enough to start having sexual desires and masturbating. Really, if you remove the parents from the picture spontaneously: sex everywhere.

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Still it doesn't mean that her body is fully developed, grown and able to sustain a fetus, nor does it imply that she's an adult.

Evolution would suggest that she can sustain a fetus

Don't have to be 'fully developed' (it'll never happen), just 'developed enough'.

[Kayenneh]

So how about we make a new age line at 25 and tell all of the children that they have to wait until this point to vote or hold autonomy? Seriously... this is like the 15th time someone has used this nonsense in age line defenses.

No need to. I just wanted to point out to MS that though there is sensible 9-year-olds out there, it doesn't make them adults.

Someone else argued this hilarity, so: masturbation will happen on its own, no need to force it

One can only hope

Sex is always readily available... all you have to do is lower your damn standards.

If one is desperate, yes, but that's not advice I would give to anyone.

And why not have (consensual) sex with someone decades older: it's likely to be a hell of a lot more pleasureful for you, as they probably know what they're doing Someone your age at that point is probably just as terribad as you are

Sure, being 20 and having sex with someone who's older could be really nice, but that does not apply for children.

The average age of virginity lossage for icelanders is 15.6. WHAT THIS MEANS is that there are a bunch of people *younger than 15.6* who are losing their virginity in iceland (or every single one loses it at 15.6 in some sort of creepy ass ritual every teenager there is forced to undergo)

9 is unlikely, but it still happens... and plenty of them have developed enough to start having sexual desires and masturbating. Really, if you remove the parents from the picture spontaneously: sex everywhere.

And I'm aware of that. There's also older people, who will bump up the bar, my point was that the lowest average was at 15.6, though there might be someone aged 9 in there, it was still almost 7 years away from 9. If there indeed are so many horny 9-year-olds out there who just can't wait to have sex, it should be reflected in the statistics.

Evolution would suggest that she can sustain a fetus

Tell that to the girls in paulpablo's videos. "Dearest, why do you die, evolution says that you should be able to carry a fetus full term!"

Don't have to be 'fully developed' (it'll never happen), just 'developed enough'.

And you think that's at 9?

[Muslim Scholar]

Girls should not be forced into marriage simply because their bodies are capable of becoming pregnant.

As I told before, forcing marriage is not allowed in Islam

In most US states they allowed below age marriage if the girl is pregnant
I think it is much better to regulate marriage before pregnancy (i.e. the Islamic system)

And may I ask what doctors these girls in rural areas of undeveloped nations are expected to get medical clearance from? Many child brides come from areas that have few doctors. They don't have access to the luxury of annual checkups, let alone a c-section if their tiny body can't pass a baby.

These are wrong doings (sometimes by Muslims) not faults in the Islamic system itself.

[Zen Badger]

Girls should not be forced into marriage simply because their bodies are capable of becoming pregnant.

As I told before, forcing marriage is not allowed in Islam

Yet it happens all the time.

How about you pull your head out of the clouds and look at the reality of Islam instead of this idealized fairytale that you seem to think it is.

[festive1]

Girls should not be forced into marriage simply because their bodies are capable of becoming pregnant.

As I told before, forcing marriage is not allowed in Islam

In most US states they allowed below age marriage if the girl is pregnant
I think it is much better to regulate marriage before pregnancy (i.e. the Islamic system)

Emancipation. For a child (or teenager) to be emancipated from their parents they have to pass a bar or two. 1: Go to court and sue their parents for legal emancipation. 2: Join the armed forces. 3: Have a kid, though I believe this is only in the case of females, I might be wrong and this might apply to the males as well.
Any way you cut it, I don't think there's a court in America that would emancipate a 9 year old, mother or not. You see, regardless of whether or not the sex was consensual, the US legal system clearly states that a 9 year old is incapable of consenting to sex. Therefore, the father would be arrested for, at the very least, statutory rape. Unless the father is also 9, in which case the legal system would look at the parents and child protective services would become involved.
Teens can get married here so long as the parent's give their consent (this is another way one can become legally emancipated from one's parents, through getting married). However, the states have a minimum age set before his/her parents can even consent to a legal marriage. Generally around 15 or 16, depending on the state.
How can a 9 year old consent to marriage if they legally cannot consent to sex? 9 year olds should not be viewed as brides or sexual objects. Because they are children. Even if they've reached puberty, they are still children.

[Dragonetti]

[quote='Dragonetti' pid='434312' dateline='1366616033']
This is a fallacy. Because, arranged marriages are illegal in the United States. It is consider a violation of human rights. In Islamic Culture, women are view as private property and barter.

No they aren't. Also, divorce exists

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An arranged marriage is a force marriage by an external force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage

That is why young women/children are flow out of the country for this type of marriage.

[Tonus]

Sex is always readily available... all you have to do is lower your damn standards.

And find a suitably rough surface!

[Violet]

No need to. I just wanted to point out to MS that though there is sensible 9-year-olds out there, it doesn't make them adults.

There are a few sensible 45 year olds... probably. I sure haven't met them, but I'm certain they exist and are adults. I don't see what their being 'adults' matters, on the other hand. Is it a person? If yes: it has the rights of a person, in my eyes. If it isn't a person: it has no such rights.

Consider: if there is no need to make an age line at 'the end of the (supposed) development cycle'... why is there an age line that should be made at 14-21 that signifies 'this is an adult now'?

If one is desperate, yes, but that's not advice I would give to anyone.

It's not even about desperation... it's about your desires, and fulfilling them. Whole lot of people out there who'll only settle for an '8' or higher (out of ten). So many miserable average people out there who would be willing to go for you, who are 5s.

It's the advice I'd give to anyone: Lower your fucking standards, in all cases.

Sure, being 20 and having sex with someone who's older could be really nice, but that does not apply for children.

So it could be really nice, a solid experience, safer... and it doesn't apply children. Why? Seems a lot better than allowing sex to be remembered as a painful and miserable experience for them.

And I'm aware of that. There's also older people, who will bump up the bar, my point was that the lowest average was at 15.6, though there might be someone aged 9 in there, it was still almost 7 years away from 9. If there indeed are so many horny 9-year-olds out there who just can't wait to have sex, it should be reflected in the statistics.

Kids aren't quite as creative at circumnavigating parents at nine as they get in their teens. It isn't that children aren't starting to get horny at nine (a good few neighbors are, if my alaskan experience is worth shit), it's that they're never given the chance. I mean... if at *10* they're teaching the girls in class about sex and condoms and shizzle... and at *11* they teach the boys: clearly somebody realizes that they're in enough 'danger' of having sex to teach every one of them

Tell that to the girls in paulpablo's videos. "Dearest, why do you die, evolution says that you should be able to carry a fetus full term!"

You just stated an evolutionary process... lol. If it isn't dying while others are surviving... it isn't evolution

Clearly there are a number enough who can survive it that they can get pregnant. It's not that it isn't dangerous... it's not that it isn't likely to kill them... it's that enough have managed it that it isn't impossible.

And you think that's at 9?

I think that it's independent of age entirely. Every case is different.

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An arranged marriage is a force marriage by an external force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage

That is why young women/children are flow out of the country for this type of marriage.

No... an arranged marriage is a marriage set up by the parents or guardians of two young people. Some would call them children, but it can happen with adults too.

The arranged marriage is sometimes coerced... but very rarely forced. And it's not illegal (though forcing it might be), which is the key behind my response.

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And find a suitably rough surface!

Sandpaper, I find, is among the better masturbation tools

[Kayenneh]

There are a few sensible 45 year olds... probably. I sure haven't met them, but I'm certain they exist and are adults.

Quite

I don't see what their being 'adults' matters, on the other hand. Is it a person? If yes: it has the rights of a person, in my eyes. If it isn't a person: it has no such rights.

Consider: if there is no need to make an age line at 'the end of the (supposed) development cycle'... why is there an age line that should be made at 14-21 that signifies 'this is an adult now'?

In a perfect world every single person would be judged according to his or hers abilities, not age. But we don't live in a perfect world and the line has to be drawn somewhere, to protect those who can't protect themselves from e.g. the preying vulture of a pedophile. Though it might be unfair towards the wholesome individuals who are cleverer and more sensible than some adults, it's the majority, the childish ones, who benefit from this.

It's not even about desperation... it's about your desires, and fulfilling them. Whole lot of people out there who'll only settle for an '8' or higher (out of ten). So many miserable average people out there who would be willing to go for you, who are 5s.

Yeah, I get your point. And that could be a whole another thread, 'Why so picky?'.

It's the advice I'd give to anyone: Lower your fucking standards, in all cases.

So it could be really nice, a solid experience, safer... and it doesn't apply children. Why? Seems a lot better than allowing sex to be remembered as a painful and miserable experience for them.

Education dearest, education. First in the class room, then in bed. E.g. (because this is totally legit anecdotal proof!) due to me getting really good sex ed, I waited until I was almost 18 and had a blast my first time

Kids aren't quite as creative at circumnavigating parents at nine as they get in their teens.

Praise Thor!

You just stated an evolutionary process... lol. If it isn't dying while others are surviving... it isn't evolution

But it seems to be unfair that some that would have survived as 20-year-olds giving birth had to die at the age of 9. And though it might be considered an evolutionary process, it's actually more imposed on them by culture than evolution.