"Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.

[Mystic]

This is one of the most emphasized subjects in Quran repeated many times with different responses and angles on the issue, and different subjects are mentioned that related with the subject.

I will be doing an analysis and I will ask that people wait to respond to the content once I am finished.

I will inform when I am finished.

I ask people responding in the topic once I am finished to read all content before.

I will be doing this slowly - so people have time to digest.

[Cyberman]

[Minimalist]

I've already lost interest.  Much of your recent work has been mind-numbing in its lack of lucidity.

[LadyForCamus]

So you're going to release it like a slow, and awful fart? Great. There really is a hell...

[chimp3]

Fuck the Koran and fuck Muhammed!

[possibletarian]

Can you reveal this great truth to us after Jesus returns ?

[LadyForCamus]

In all seriousness, MK; you talk and talk, but you don't listen or absorb anything your interlocutors are saying in response. You insist that it's important to you to convince athesits that god exists, but you don't seem at all interested in learning what we do or don't find persuasive.

One more time: We don't care about what your book says. That's not an insult; it's just the truth. Atheists who are also rational skeptics (most of us here are) are never going to be persuaded or convinced to believe in your god by way of holy texts. We've told you this over and over, and yet here you are, about to give us a five-part study on the Koran. What you need to be having first, is a conversation with us about what counts as 'evidence', and why.

[brewer]

MK, could you make it either 4 or 6 parts. I have this thing for prime numbers and don't want 5 ruined.

[Mystic]

Intro

If someone claimed to be a Prophet in this age, people would be right to demand a decisive proof.  This is very natural, and I would expect a book from God to understand how key the issue is to humans.

The issue of proof to not be repeated in a holy book, is a serious indication, that the holy book is not from God, as God would be concerned with clarifying the issue of proof.

We will see this a repeated theme that not is only mentioned often, but indirectly referred to, and has integrate the subject with the entire Quran, and summarized the whole book in one phrase and presented the proof and it's philosophical outlook all in one phrase with an eloquent elaboration.


The appearance of the objection in 2nd Chapter.

Verse 118:2

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وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ لَوْلَا يُكَلِّمُنَا اللَّهُ أَوْ تَأْتِينَا آيَةٌ ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ قَالَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ مِثْلَ قَوْلِهِمْ ۘ تَشَابَهَتْ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ قَدْ بَيَّنَّا الْآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ {118

---

Those who do not know say why does not God talk to us or a proof/sign come to us: in the same manner those (who did not know) say before them, their hearts are similar (to one another). We have shown the proofs/signs to a people who attain certainty/become sure/are sure.




This is it's first appearance which may have the impression that God doesn't want us demanding proofs, but this is not what it is saying.  Those who do not know naturally will ask these questions, and they are natural, but in response it says indeed God has shown signs to a people who attain certainty. That is people who proofs avail, are shown these very proof that they are asking, for it to come to them.

And both parties admit this in a sense. That is those demanding a proof from God are saying "God if he wishes to guide us, would show us the signs" and it is saying this is true, he would show signs, but who would they truly appear to and come to? To people who become certain. 

And this admitted by both sides, because, a sign/proof should make you certain that is the whole point of them.  And it does not make sense that God would not show signs to a people who become certain and accept them.

But implied is that,  some people demanding proofs will not accept proofs. And this the other side of the issue which Quran will elaborate on.

The question is what is proof? Do we simply define these by narrow definition or is the discovery of exactly how this would be, something we should not be hasty with and listen closely.

Now is the Quran done, is this the only response. No, if God revealed the book, then he certainly must address this issue further as the whole book purpose is to provide clear proofs. If it doesn't take this issue seriously, it would be right to assume the book and it's author is not least concerned with the issue.

In fact the elaboration of this subject in this Surah is intense, and we will go back to the issue of proof to it, later.  What I wanted to show is the very instance you would really come across that Quran takes the demand of proof by people seriously and confirms they are right, that God would provide proofs which would be shown to those who attain certainty.

[Aoi Magi]

Intro

If someone claimed to be a Prophet in this age, people would be right to demand a decisive proof.  This is very natural, and I would expect a book from God to understand how key the issue is to humans.

The issue of proof to not be repeated in a holy book, is a serious indication, that the holy book is not from God, as God would be concerned with clarifying the issue of proof.

We will see this a repeated theme that not is only mentioned often, but indirectly referred to, and has integrate the subject with the entire Quran, and summarized the whole book in one phrase and presented the proof and it's philosophical outlook all in one phrase with an eloquent elaboration.


The appearance of the objection in 2nd Chapter.

Verse 118:2

---

وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ لَوْلَا يُكَلِّمُنَا اللَّهُ أَوْ تَأْتِينَا آيَةٌ ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ قَالَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ مِثْلَ قَوْلِهِمْ ۘ تَشَابَهَتْ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ قَدْ بَيَّنَّا الْآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ {118

---

Those who do not know say why does not God talk to us or a proof/sign come to us: in the same manner those (who did not know) say before them, their hearts are similar (to one another). We have shown the proofs/signs to a people who attain certainty/become sure/are sure.




This is it's first appearance which may have the impression that God doesn't want us demanding proofs, but this is not what it is saying.  Those who do not know naturally will ask these questions, and they are natural, but in response it says indeed God has shown signs to a people who attain certainty. That is people who proofs avail, are shown these very proof that they are asking, for it to come to them.

And both parties admit this in a sense. That is those demanding a proof from God are saying "God if he wishes to guide us, would show us the signs" and it is saying this is true, he would show signs, but who would they truly appear to and come to? To people who become certain. 

And this admitted by both sides, because, a sign/proof should make you certain that is the whole point of them.  And it does not make sense that God would not show signs to a people who become certain and accept them.

But implied is that,  some people demanding proofs will not accept proofs. And this the other side of the issue which Quran will elaborate on.

The question is what is proof? Do we simply define these by narrow definition or is the discovery of exactly how this would be, something we should not be hasty with and listen closely.

Now is the Quran done, is this the only response. No, if God revealed the book, then he certainly must address this issue further as the whole book purpose is to provide clear proofs. If it doesn't take this issue seriously, it would be right to assume the book and it's author is not least concerned with the issue.

In fact the elaboration of this subject in this Surah is intense, and we will go back to the issue of proof to it, later.  What I wanted to show is the very instance you would really come across that Quran takes the demand of proof by people seriously and confirms they are right, that God would provide proofs which would be shown to those who attain certainty.

In other words first believe without proof, then continue believing without proof


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