Are you for or against the separation of church and state?

[Jackalope]

But.... They're delicious. Like puppies.

[Violet]

But.... They're delicious. Like puppies.

I know they're delicious... it's part of their system. They need a sufficient buildup in a vessel before they can take it over... to cause this, they make you addicted to them.

You have a problem, a very serious problem. I'm afraid the only answer is rehabilitation.

[Jackalope]

Bananas. Cold, dead hands. Come get some.

[Violet]

Bananas. Cold, dead hands. Come get some.

Hey now... you know me. I'll tell you when you're doing something foolish, but I'll never stop you until it's going to affect me or someone I really like.

I don't, however, look forward to killing bananified Chtulhu come a few years from now

[Jackalope]

Crazy Alaskan-Texicans and their froot loop banana conspiracy theories.

[Esquilax]

Beyond that, if you've got a god responsible for the creation of everything that exists, then by necessity he created sin even if it is a conceptual thing. If he created the capacity for sin to occur then he's responsible for it when it does;

We went from talking about God's creating evil to Him being responsible for it. It seems we're in agreement, then, that God need not contain evil for evil to exist, and that sin need not come from outside the universe. It remains a possibility that God is perfectly good. Of course you can still blame Him for evil, but only to the degree that you blame a teacher for letting her students get Fs when they don't study--it's still humanity's fault.

I think we're talking about different things, here. I'm just observing that if god didn't directly create sin- and sin wasn't a part of his garden of eden plan in the first place- then we have an example of something coming from nothing. I don't really care about the morality of god beyond that single point, here.

Not to distract from this amazing conversation about... bananas?

Okay. Bananas...

[Tonus]

This conversation was pretty bananas before the bananas were even introduced.

[Godscreated]

@ Esquilax, how do you define sin, it seems you are trying to make it a physical thing, like trees or rocks or what ever.

[smax]

We went from talking about God's creating evil to Him being responsible for it. It seems we're in agreement, then, that God need not contain evil for evil to exist, and that sin need not come from outside the universe. It remains a possibility that God is perfectly good. Of course you can still blame Him for evil, but only to the degree that you blame a teacher for letting her students get Fs when they don't study--it's still humanity's fault.

Not at all, and not by a long shot. In your case, being Christian, god is directly responsible for sin and evil because he created the terms and made them near impossible to honor.

I'll explain:

God creates Adam and Eve, who are babies in the greatest sense of the word. They know nothing of logic or reason, and must be taught everything.

God creates the tree of good and evil and places it within their reach. He instructs them not to eat of it.

God creates Satan. Satan is not only the most evil and sinful creature in existence, he's also extremely clever, manipulative, and cunning.

God places Satan on earth, where he can interact with and influence these newborn babies.

Now, either god is extremely naive, or he wanted sin to come into the world.

What amazes me is, Christians will read this stuff and not truly understand the implications. You should be extremely offended by the idea of a parent so recklessly and carelessly caring for it's child.

But I'm sure you are not. And why? Because you like the idea of living forever, and this is the most compelling story you have been exposed to that allows you to entertain that fantasy.

Problem is, even if your religious beliefs were valid, all the evidence contained in the Bible points to a terrible outcome for you and all of your fellow believers.

The god of the Bible has consistently gotten bored and upset, and as a result, toyed and tampered with his creation.

As an example, Job was apparently in good standing with god, and enjoying the fruits of such a relationship when, all of sudden, God decided to bet on the merits of Job's loyalty. No big deal, just a little experiment to see if Job would still have a good attitude after having all of his children killed, all of his hard work and possessions destroyed, and his physical well being significantly compromised.

And how about the flood?

And what do you make of god's most beautiful Angel being kicked out of heaven?

Just a few of many examples of god changing his mind.

Are you just hoping that he gets all of this toying out of system before his mood swings impact you personally?

Christians think Atheists have a dark view of things. Read your damn bibles, people, it's the other way around.

[Esquilax]

@ Esquilax, how do you define sin, it seems you are trying to make it a physical thing, like trees or rocks or what ever.

I don't define sin. I don't care to, and I don't really have to either, since I was under the impression that most theists also attribute the majority of their better instincts and emotional states to god too, not to mention abstract concepts like morality and love. Plus all that divine plan stuff, and the "god's truth written on every heart," argument I occasionally hear... it seems like god just creates everything regardless of its physicality of conceptual nature. So while I doubt sin is some physical entity to most theists, god seems sort of in the bag for non-physical things too.

So it doesn't matter what sin is, just where it came from.