A challenge about women and marriage in Islam

[paulpablo]

You say beating happens in western countries, it doesn't happen within the law.

Also it isn't under californian law that a 9 year old can be married, they removed the age of consent to be determined when the time comes for it needing to be determined but I seriously don't think a 9 year old has ever got married in california, i could be wrong but seriously doubt it.

And the Islamic system strictly speaking is based on the quran, the quran says the husband can beat the wife if he fears arrogance from her, no mention of what she should do if she fears arrogance from him, no mention of tapping with a stick, which doesn't constitute beating or scourging as is mentioned in the quran.


This is precisely what I mean when I say you view Islamic laws in the notion of a fantasy world where people will follow all of the rules and they will never be corruptible, but when you speak of western laws you just say "the 9 year old will have sex anyway, women get beaten anyway, the 10 year old will get pregnant anyway"
so can you see the problem with this? Whatever laws or systems I say are better than Islamic laws, for example not marrying 9 year olds and not beating them, you say "they will do it anyway" But when I argue that under islamic law children are forced into marriages, pulled out of education, become pregnant, you say this isn't islamic so I'll just use your argument, in countries where Islamic law is put in place "they do it anyway" as you say.
It is the Islamic laws that allow them to just do this type of thing anyway, and what makes it worse than the western laws is that they do it to 9 year old girls, and they can legally beat them following the quran.
And as you have been repeatedly shown, a lot of these horny 9 year olds out there you imagine exist, don't exist. Statistically speaking a lot of these 9 year olds don't just "do it anyway"

You basically aren't arguing against fundamentals of the systems I mention you are just saying they will do it anyway to whatever laws I support, people murder anyway it doesn't mean there shouldn't be a law in place against it.

[Tonus]

Under Islam Jennifer will talk with her parents, they will probably make an arranged marriage with somebody they feel suitable for her, even if he is young they (and his parents) will support the marriage till they grew up and decide for themselves.

Looks like Jennifer has some pretty poor options all around. But in the West, it seems as if her fate is at least dependent on her own choices.

Beating wives happens anyway in many western countries, under Islam it is restricted to be not hard and not on face, it helps a lot in many cases, anyway (as any western country) she has the right of divorce if she doesn't like it too much.

In the West, beating your wife is assault, and she also has the right of divorce if she's being assaulted. She also has the right to report the crime of assault and have that asshole arrested for being a scumbag.

[Muslim Scholar]

Looks like Jennifer has some pretty poor options all around. But in the West, it seems as if her fate is at least dependent on her own choices.

How is that? In Islam she only doesn't have the option of free sex
While in many western countries she doesn't have the option of marriage
It is very clear that Islam is better.

In the West, beating your wife is assault, and she also has the right of divorce if she's being assaulted. She also has the right to report the crime of assault and have that asshole arrested for being a scumbag.

Same options in Islam!
A spank or a small punch is not usually a crime in most countries.

---

Also it isn't under californian law that a 9 year old can be married, they removed the age of consent to be determined when the time comes for it needing to be determined but I seriously don't think a 9 year old has ever got married in california, i could be wrong but seriously doubt it.

Theatrically it can be any age (even 6), also It is not only CA as most states allow under age marriage if the girl is already pregnant.
Which is better to allow marriage when a problem is already happened or to allow it (with regulations) from the start?

And the Islamic system strictly speaking is based on the quran, the quran says the husband can beat the wife if he fears arrogance from her, no mention of what she should do if she fears arrogance from him, no mention of tapping with a stick, which doesn't constitute beating or scourging as is mentioned in the quran.

Yes, husband can beat his wife but not the other way
But beating is restricted to be not harmful, not in face it is like spanking or a small punch on the shoulder.
We are also allowed to beat our children, teachers are allowed to beat students in the same manner
It is sometimes very helpful, just compare crimes in US Schools to any Islamic country!

This is precisely what I mean when I say you view Islamic laws in the notion of a fantasy world where people will follow all of the rules and they will never be corruptible, but when you speak of western laws you just say "the 9 year old will have sex anyway, women get beaten anyway, the 10 year old will get pregnant anyway"
so can you see the problem with this? Whatever laws or systems I say are better than Islamic laws, for example not marrying 9 year olds and not beating them, you say "they will do it anyway" But when I argue that under islamic law children are forced into marriages, pulled out of education, become pregnant, you say this isn't islamic so I'll just use your argument, in countries where Islamic law is put in place "they do it anyway" as you say.
It is the Islamic laws that allow them to just do this type of thing anyway, and what makes it worse than the western laws is that they do it to 9 year old girls, and they can legally beat them following the quran.
And as you have been repeatedly shown, a lot of these horny 9 year olds out there you imagine exist, don't exist. Statistically speaking a lot of these 9 year olds don't just "do it anyway"

People will do wrong under any system, but which system is more suitable to human needs? this the question
Banning young marriage has no point, it will happen any way, and it will have bad effects than regulating it
You see most US states allow it if the girl is pregnant (or had the child already)

You basically aren't arguing against fundamentals of the systems I mention you are just saying they will do it anyway to whatever laws I support, people murder anyway it doesn't mean there shouldn't be a law in place against it.

Yes, but marriage is not a crime!

[paulpablo]

Looks like Jennifer has some pretty poor options all around. But in the West, it seems as if her fate is at least dependent on her own choices.

How is that? In Islam she only doesn't have the option of free sex
While in many western countries she doesn't have the option of marriage
It is very clear that Islam is better.

In the West, beating your wife is assault, and she also has the right of divorce if she's being assaulted. She also has the right to report the crime of assault and have that asshole arrested for being a scumbag.

Same options in Islam!
A spank or a small punch is not usually a crime in most countries.

---

Also it isn't under californian law that a 9 year old can be married, they removed the age of consent to be determined when the time comes for it needing to be determined but I seriously don't think a 9 year old has ever got married in california, i could be wrong but seriously doubt it.

Theatrically it can be any age (even 6), also It is not only CA as most states allow under age marriage if the girl is already pregnant.
Which is better to allow marriage when a problem is already happened or to allow it (with regulations) from the start?

And the Islamic system strictly speaking is based on the quran, the quran says the husband can beat the wife if he fears arrogance from her, no mention of what she should do if she fears arrogance from him, no mention of tapping with a stick, which doesn't constitute beating or scourging as is mentioned in the quran.

Yes, husband can beat his wife but not the other way
But beating is restricted to be not harmful, not in face it is like spanking or a small punch on the shoulder.
We are also allowed to beat our children, teachers are allowed to beat students in the same manner
It is sometimes very helpful, just compare crimes in US Schools to any Islamic country!

This is precisely what I mean when I say you view Islamic laws in the notion of a fantasy world where people will follow all of the rules and they will never be corruptible, but when you speak of western laws you just say "the 9 year old will have sex anyway, women get beaten anyway, the 10 year old will get pregnant anyway"
so can you see the problem with this? Whatever laws or systems I say are better than Islamic laws, for example not marrying 9 year olds and not beating them, you say "they will do it anyway" But when I argue that under islamic law children are forced into marriages, pulled out of education, become pregnant, you say this isn't islamic so I'll just use your argument, in countries where Islamic law is put in place "they do it anyway" as you say.
It is the Islamic laws that allow them to just do this type of thing anyway, and what makes it worse than the western laws is that they do it to 9 year old girls, and they can legally beat them following the quran.
And as you have been repeatedly shown, a lot of these horny 9 year olds out there you imagine exist, don't exist. Statistically speaking a lot of these 9 year olds don't just "do it anyway"

People will do wrong under any system, but which system is more suitable to human needs? this the question
Banning young marriage has no point, it will happen any way, and it will have bad effects than regulating it
You see most US states allow it if the girl is pregnant (or had the child already)

You basically aren't arguing against fundamentals of the systems I mention you are just saying they will do it anyway to whatever laws I support, people murder anyway it doesn't mean there shouldn't be a law in place against it.

Yes, but marriage is not a crime!

So then we should make murder not a crime since people will do it anyway, more people out there commit murder than there are 9 year old girls out there perusing and engaging in sex, by making murder legal you are complying to the needs of the people even more. If people will do it anyway it needs to be regulated.

That was basically sarcasm but seriously, in america how is that the same as the Islamic system? The if the girl is already pregnant then she gets married, this implies she had sex outside of marriage beforehand. And I still can't find any evidence that 9 year olds are getting married in america, unless you can show me.

You haven't been able to even show me these horny 9 year olds you speak of who are protesting and wanting to get married to an adult. I have yet to see a protest group of 9 year olds chanting "WHAT DO WE WANT, SEX WITH ADULTS, WHEN DO WE WANT IT, BEFORE WE'RE 10 YEARS OLD PLEASE"

[Muslim Scholar]

That was basically sarcasm but seriously, in america how is that the same as the Islamic system?

I mean for that case only
If a girl wants sex under both laws she will

US: have sex with another child, then may get married
Islam: will get married first, then have sex

Don't you see the benefits of the Islamic system?

The if the girl is already pregnant then she gets married, this implies she had sex outside of marriage beforehand.

Yes, it is allowed in US while it is punishable under Islam

And I still can't find any evidence that 9 year olds are getting married in america, unless you can show me.

The law allows it.

[paulpablo]

That was basically sarcasm but seriously, in america how is that the same as the Islamic system?

I mean for that case only
If a girl wants sex under both laws she will

US: have sex with another child, then may get married
Islam: will get married first, then have sex

Don't you see the benefits of the Islamic system?

The if the girl is already pregnant then she gets married, this implies she had sex outside of marriage beforehand.

Yes, it is allowed in US while it is punishable under Islam

And I still can't find any evidence that 9 year olds are getting married in america, unless you can show me.

The law allows it.

The law allows judges to decide on the age a person can get married, can you show evidence of a judge deciding that a 9 year old can be married?
A pregnant unmarried 9 year old would be punished in islam? If so what would the punishment be?

[Muslim Scholar]

The law allows judges to decide on the age a person can get married, can you show evidence of a judge deciding that a 9 year old can be married?

You can see from the US laws that they allow a young girl (No minimum) to get married if she is pregnant
(Exact cases data is usually confidential)
Alabama Statistics
It is showing that the youngest mother is 12 (so she had sex at about 10)

Sex age at USA

A pregnant unmarried 9 year old would be punished in islam? If so what would the punishment be?

80 lashes, but only if it is proved that she had sex by her choice (adultery)

[paulpablo]

The law allows judges to decide on the age a person can get married, can you show evidence of a judge deciding that a 9 year old can be married?

You can see from the US laws that they allow a young girl (No minimum) to get married if she is pregnant
(Exact cases data is usually confidential)

A pregnant unmarried 9 year old would be punished in islam? If so what would the punishment be?

80 lashes

lashing a pregnant 9 year girl old 80 times.

Well I don't think that's a good thing either.

Also I've been searching and I can't find one instance of a 9, 10, 11 12 13 or even 14 year old being married in america.

[Muslim Scholar]

lashing a pregnant 9 year girl old 80 times.

She won't be lashed till she give birth
Consent age in Islam is defined by puberty not by age.

Also I've been searching and I can't find one instance of a 9, 10, 11 12 13 or even 14 year old being married in america.

See the previous post link in Alabama the youngest marriage was for a girl at 13
however youngest mother was 12 (without marriage)

The sexual activity statistics in USA for young is very high
0.6% are having sex at 10 Wow!

it means that 1 from each 200 are having sex at(or before) 10, what will be better to regulate marriage for those 2 million people or to leave them to have sex with no restrictions?

[paulpablo]

lashing a pregnant 9 year girl old 80 times.

She won't be lashed till she give birth
Consent age in Islam is defined by puberty not by age.

Also I've been searching and I can't find one instance of a 9, 10, 11 12 13 or even 14 year old being married in america.

See the previous post link in Alabama the youngest marriage was for a girl at 13
however youngest mother was 12 (without marriage)

The sexual activity statistics in USA for young is very high
0.6% are having sex at 10 Wow!

it means that 1 from each 200 are having sex at(or before) 10, what will be better to regulate marriage for those 2 million people or to leave them to have sex with no restrictions?

62 percent of those say their first encounter was coerced, so that would imply to me that we need to try harder to prevent adults coercing 10 year olds into having sex rather than making matters worse by allowing the adult to marry someone who is even younger than 10.

Also this graph shows sexual activity and not full sex, it could be anything, having an old person sexually molest a 9 year old girl is sexual activity, and the majority of them were coerced so that seems to be the most likely type of sexual activity.

Also the graph is about 10 year olds and not 9 year olds.