What Are Miracles...

[Faith No More]

I think I covered that in the snippet you took out. These miracles were probably no easier to identify for those people than it is for us with mothers who survive cancer.
If you lived in BC: (a) you could attribute the miracle to demons due to the lack of science to explain it (b) just forget about it, considering that the world only had polytheistic priests who would tell you that the gods lived in idols and ate bread.
When Israel was a nomadic tribe in the desert, it wasn't exactly easy to believe that there was a single invisible god who was everywhere and then found a nation based of that belief. It was a pioneering concept. So these people needed very strong proof of who this God was to be convinced to keep incredibly specific commandments meant to preserve perfect monotheistic faith. Besides, crossing rivers didn't stop them from rebelling against Moses.
Miracles systematically decreased in splendor from crossing rivers to shaking vipers of your hand (St. Paul). When monotheism became more popular, it was a lot easier to join the Christians or the Jews. The problem became became actually believing whether or not the Judeo-Christian god did it. It was easy to believe in a god then.
Then, miracles become harder to prove and harder to attribute to a deity at all.
God doesn't make it easy on anybody. The problem with believing in him went from being the odd one out to trying to figure out which god did it to trying to figure out if a god did it at all. God does his part, and he requires being met halfway so he can carry you to where you need to go.

This has to be the worst excuse I've ever heard for why miracles don't occur anymore. People in the biblical times were credulous, and they believed that a deity directed lightning and that comets were omens of times to come. We have developed the scientific method, which is the greatest tool humanity has ever created to distinguish fact from fiction, and all of a sudden god thinks his miracles need to be less miraculous? If anything, the miracles should have to be even more incredible than burning bushes and the parting of seas due to our greater understanding of natural processes.

Does it bother you that our ability to understand nature around us has been accompanied by lesser and lesser miracles that have shrunk in such stature to the point that they are unverifiable, i.e. cancer being cured?

[Whateverist]

Not I. (Or, if I did, how would I know? Is everything for which I haven't an explanation a likely miracle?)

So, the proof doesn't matter! Here anyway! It did, and does matter to those that received these miracles though. And that's all that really matters!

No I don't think you lie. I just doubt that you can be sure of a thing like that. Perhaps it is I who am mistaken but I doubt what you count as proof will sway me, do you think? Eye witness accounts may hold up in court but I'm never very confident in them .. and not just because I think they may be lying either. What people expect to see can greatly influence what they think they see.

And whether or not there is anything at all supernatural isn't up to me, but I just can't conceive of such a thing. For me, everything that exists is natural. If you are correct about your god existing, then He too is natural - by my way of thinking.

[Something completely different]

If anything in the Bible turns out not to be true, it can only then be taken as a metaphor or a misunderstanding from the people who wrote it before modern science existed.

Do you know what a "Laconic Phrase" is?

During the pelopenisian wars, the city state of Athens invaded the lands of Sparta and attempted to conquere the city of Sparta itself.
The Athenians sent a messenger to the spartans with a message that said:

If you do not surrender we will enslave the entire population, burn down your city and destroy your culture

The Spartans sent back a messenger with the reply:

IF

Arguments based on "IF`s" or "IF not`s" are nothing but weird daydreams kept alive against the opposition of critical thinking with nothing else but a total ignorance of reality.

Facts matter - IF`s dont.

I should also say that universe made without God is also an unproven assertion that is under heavy debate.

I have never denied that. It is you who insists that god created the universe - without putting forward any evidence.

I'm not going to enter into that debate with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDd-GXkMrJs

And, by the way, if you view of a *fundamentalist is a Christian, then that's exactly what I am.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgpytjlW5wU

[Consilius]

Consilius, don't ignore my post. It's very easy to say how much good there is when you use examples of success stories. Not so easy with stories of failure, i.e. a mother actually dying of cancer.

No, it isn't. Actually, most of the time, these people DO die from cancer.
But that people die from cancer is actually further evidence of the work of God in the lives of those who survive cancer. Mercy comes when it is unexpected. If everybody survived cancer, you would be just as impressed as you are when you cross the street NOT getting hit by an airplane.
Obviously, it's more than that. People who die from cancer are much more than casualties used in getting compliments. The thing is that no one lives forever, and God knows when it's time for someone to figure it out for themselves. But the time of a death is part of God's foreknowledge, and is approved by him because it is at the absolute best time possible, for reasons he knows and others discover later in life.
As for the people who dead mothers leave behind, it is a time to make a decision. Tragedy has brought many families closer together. It has also ripped them apart. People become better Christians when parents die. They also become atheists. In tragedy, all you know and believe is put on the line and you are given a choice. Tragedies form great characters from weak ones, and they also break strong ones. And what it does is give you a wake-up call about life and force you to find direction.

---

If anything in the Bible turns out not to be true, it can only then be taken as a metaphor or a misunderstanding from the people who wrote it before modern science existed.

Do you know what a "Laconic Phrase" is?

During the pelopenisian wars, the city state of Athens invaded the lands of Sparta and attempted to conquere the city of Sparta itself.
The Athenians sent a messenger to the spartans with a message that said:

If you do not surrender we will enslave the entire population, burn down your city and destroy your culture

The Spartans sent back a messenger with the reply:

IF

Arguments based on "IF`s" or "IF not`s" are nothing but weird daydreams kept alive against the opposition of critical thinking with nothing else but a total ignorance of reality.

Facts matter - IF`s dont.

I should also say that universe made without God is also an unproven assertion that is under heavy debate.

I have never denied that. It is you who insists that god created the universe - without putting forward any evidence.

I'm not going to enter into that debate with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDd-GXkMrJs

And, by the way, if you view of a *fundamentalist is a Christian, then that's exactly what I am.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgpytjlW5wU

Let me clarify that the Bible itself is entirely true.
But the science it presents is merely a belief of the time. God didn't have the Bible written to prophesy the coming of Velcro.
Any scientific statement in the Bible is subject to scrutiny, and the disproval of any of it is irrelevant to Christian belief.
Nobody is a Christian because they're afraid of falling off the Earth.

[NoraBrimstone]

Mothers survive cancer…teenagers get off drugs…kidnapped children are recovered.

On the other hand, mothers get cancer, teenagers get on drugs and children get kidnapped in the first place.

[phil77]

The beginning of the universe is a miracle. Up until the 1950's , mainstream science believed that the universe had always been here.

[Baalzebutt]

No, it isn't. Actually, most of the time, these people DO die from cancer.
But that people die from cancer is actually further evidence of the work of God in the lives of those who survive cancer. Mercy comes when it is unexpected. If everybody survived cancer, you would be just as impressed as you are when you cross the street NOT getting hit by an airplane.
Obviously, it's more than that. People who die from cancer are much more than casualties used in getting compliments. The thing is that no one lives forever, and God knows when it's time for someone to figure it out for themselves. But the time of a death is part of God's foreknowledge, and is approved by him because it is at the absolute best time possible, for reasons he knows and others discover later in life.
As for the people who dead mothers leave behind, it is a time to make a decision. Tragedy has brought many families closer together. It has also ripped them apart. People become better Christians when parents die. They also become atheists. In tragedy, all you know and believe is put on the line and you are given a choice. Tragedies form great characters from weak ones, and they also break strong ones. And what it does is give you a wake-up call about life and force you to find direction.

Fuck me. You know, I don't even have the proper words to tell you how much people like you piss me off.

You stand around making excuses for your feeble god, you give no credit to people for their accomplishments (least of all, yourself) and ignore or twist anything that doesn't agree with your "perfect bible, perfect god" scenario.

Go read a fucking book and get some education. Figure out what the real world is about. Even if your god did exist, he would be nothing like worship-worthy anyway. He is a petulant child with an overblown ego and a penchant for violence.

[Something completely different]

Let me clarify that the Bible itself is entirely true.

We are all the result of the incest of two individuals called Adam and Eve?
People could become 500 years old?
The Jews fled Egypt even although there is absolutly no historical record?
Women are cursed and therefor have to menstruate?
A woman is worth the same as a donky?


All true?

But the science it presents is merely a belief of the time.

What science does it present? Give some examples! I am curious to see.

God didn't have the Bible written to prophesy the coming of Velcro.

Nope, he had it writen as a messure of extreme crowdcontrol.

Any scientific statement in the Bible is subject to scrutiny, and the disproval of any of it is irrelevant to Christian belief.

The more importent point is: The Bible cannot disprove scientific fact!

Like parents letting their children die in hope for faith healings - this causes far more harm than the other way arround.

Nobody is a Christian because they're afraid of falling off the Earth.

Statement of irrelevants.

[Simon Moon]

No, it isn't. Actually, most of the time, these people DO die from cancer.
But that people die from cancer is actually further evidence of the work of God in the lives of those who survive cancer. Mercy comes when it is unexpected.

Well, isn't that convenient. When people die or survive cancer, both are a sign of god.

Lab rats given cancer will sometimes go into spontaneous remission without treatment. Is your god also determining the rate that lab rats die?

[CleanShavenJesus]

Consilius, don't ignore my post. It's very easy to say how much good there is when you use examples of success stories. Not so easy with stories of failure, i.e. a mother actually dying of cancer.

No, it isn't. Actually, most of the time, these people DO die from cancer.
But that people die from cancer is actually further evidence of the work of God in the lives of those who survive cancer. Mercy comes when it is unexpected. If everybody survived cancer, you would be just as impressed as you are when you cross the street NOT getting hit by an airplane.
Obviously, it's more than that. People who die from cancer are much more than casualties used in getting compliments. The thing is that no one lives forever, and God knows when it's time for someone to figure it out for themselves. But the time of a death is part of God's foreknowledge, and is approved by him because it is at the absolute best time possible, for reasons he knows and others discover later in life.
As for the people who dead mothers leave behind, it is a time to make a decision. Tragedy has brought many families closer together. It has also ripped them apart. People become better Christians when parents die. They also become atheists. In tragedy, all you know and believe is put on the line and you are given a choice. Tragedies form great characters from weak ones, and they also break strong ones. And what it does is give you a wake-up call about life and force you to find direction.

sigh...