My Loss of faith has caused severe depression

[The Grand Nudger]

If I'm being perfectly honest with myself, it may be fear. When I was a believer I had confidence that good old God was policing the universe. God prescribed a definitive moral code, and deviation from this code was wrong. My dilemma probably stems from a lack of confidence in humankind which I can't seem to be rid of.

I can understand that....but fear of what, that people may disagree? Back when "good ole god" was policing the universe..as you put it - people did bad things, didn't they? Despite there being some definitive moral code, despite that deviating from that code was wrong - people still managed to ignore, be oblivious to, or otherwise disagree with that code, didn't they?

What could possibly justify a change in your confidence in humankind, seeing as it's unlikely that humankind -et al- is doing anything differently between this moment and that moment? I mean, if you had no confidence in us before then you've lost nothing on account of your loss of faith in this regard - and if you had confidence in us before we're still doing the same shit...day in and day out. The status of your faith has changed, not humanity.

All these things you mentioned appear to be the sorts of things theists -say- about what would happen if you didn't believe...or if there weren't a god. However, you're not signing on with the things that they say anymore..are you? If you reckon they were wrong about the whole god thing.....why are you affording their ideas about what -is- or -is not-...... that stem from their god bit...... any credibility?

[Cyberman]

The dilemma for me is that the morals we create have no intrinsic value, as money has no intrinsic value.

Yet none of that stops people from spending money, or desiring to accumulate it. Intrinsic or not, money is still recognised as having value. Similarly with our morals. It may indeed be true that there's no such thing as intrinsic moral value, but people tend to behave as though there is. Which is more important?

There is no moral code set in stone. What one man considers righteous as per his moral code may well be abhorrent to another.

Sorry to sound harsh, but this isn't a judgement you get to make. One man's moral virtue might indeed be another's moral vice, but that's their issue and unless you are personally involved, and no-one's getting hurt against their wishes, neither you nor I should even care. Interestingly, there does seem to be a Venn-diagram-style overlap where society generally agrees on what is moral and what isn't, i.e. murder, child porn etc. It's almost as though these things had an intrinsic value, isn't it?

[Aran]

If I'm being perfectly honest with myself, it may be fear. When I was a believer I had confidence that good old God was policing the universe. God prescribed a definitive moral code, and deviation from this code was wrong. My dilemma probably stems from a lack of confidence in humankind which I can't seem to be rid of.

I can understand that....but fear of what, that people may disagree? Back when "good ole god" was policing the universe..as you put it - people did bad things, didn't they? Despite there being some definitive moral code, despite that deviating from that code was wrong - people still managed to ignore, be oblivious to, or otherwise disagree with that code, didn't they?

What could possibly justify a change in your confidence in humankind, seeing as it's unlikely that humankind -et al- is doing anything differently between this moment and that moment? I mean, if you had no confidence in us before then you've lost nothing on account of your loss of faith in this regard - and if you had confidence in us before we're still doing the same shit...day in and day out. The status of your faith has changed, not humanity.

You're right, my lack of confidence in humanity has always been there. But when I was a believer I was certain that God would always be there to keep us in check. I'm afraid of what people can do, should they be left to their own devices, left to conceive what is right and what is wrong for themselves. The idea I accepted upon my becoming an atheist that humankind is the sole master of its own destiny is daunting and troubling, given what we are capable of. Its the lack of that omnibenevolent agency which most disturbs me. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my problem.

---

Interestingly, there does seem to be a Venn-diagram-style overlap where society generally agrees on what is moral and what isn't, i.e. murder, child porn etc. It's almost as though these things had an intrinsic value, isn't it?

Hah, beautifully put.

[The Grand Nudger]

You're right, my lack of confidence in humanity has always been there. But when I was a believer I was certain that God would always be there to keep us in check. I'm afraid of what people can do, should they be left to their own devices. The idea I accepted upon my becoming an atheist that humankind is the sole master of its own destiny is daunting and troubling, given what we are capable of. Its the lack of that omnibenevolent agency which most disturbs me. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my problem.

Did you ever see god keeping anyone in check? Did it seem to you then.... that god was engaged in this sort of daily business? If not, what? If so..now that you don't believe that god had anything to do with whatever you saw keeping us in check isn't whatever it -actually was- still doing precisely what it did before?

I don't know if I could honestly lay claim to being the masters of our own destiny. We have limitations. We are subject to things beyond our control. We seem to be able to exert a great amount of influence though. Sometimes that influence, the pursuit of our interests, appears to come into conflict with the interests of others (or even..admittedly a potentially horrifying scenario - our own interests). Perhaps this pulls you in the direction of pessimism..but if I could be so bold as to suggest that even in conflict we are capable of bettering ourselves, what would your opinion of this be?

There may be no omnibenevolent agency in your POV now, but there wasn't any omnibenevolent agency back when you believed that there was either (if your current POV holds). Is the belief in the agency more important than it's actual existence? If you were capable of manufacturing that sense of insulation before - why not now....with the realization that it was internal?

NP abut responding bud, narratives such as your own fascinate the shit out of me - having never experienced what you're experiencing.

[Walking Void]

I'm afraid of what people can do, should they be left to their own devices, left to conceive what is right and what is wrong for themselves.

There are moments when You need to trust people and yourself especially, while still being cautious to the best of your ability (safety-first). Fear is not wisdom, remember it well.

If You had to take an intercontinental flight while knowing that a terrorist was at an unspecified airport, You can stay away from people (as they may suicide-bomb) while proceeding with your travels.

[Aran]

You're right, my lack of confidence in humanity has always been there. But when I was a believer I was certain that God would always be there to keep us in check. I'm afraid of what people can do, should they be left to their own devices. The idea I accepted upon my becoming an atheist that humankind is the sole master of its own destiny is daunting and troubling, given what we are capable of. Its the lack of that omnibenevolent agency which most disturbs me. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my problem.

Did you ever see god keeping anyone in check? Did it seem to you then.... that god was engaged in this sort of daily business? If not, what? If so..now that you don't believe that god had anything to do with whatever you saw keeping us in check isn't whatever it -actually was- still doing precisely what it did before?

I don't know if I could honestly lay claim to being the masters of our own destiny. We have limitations. We are subject to things beyond our control. We seem to be able to exert a great amount of influence though. Sometimes that influence, the pursuit of our interests, appears to come into conflict with the interests of others (or even..admittedly a potentially horrifying scenario - our own interests). Perhaps this pulls you in the direction of pessimism..but if I could be so bold as to suggest that even in conflict we are capable of bettering ourselves, what would your opinion of this be?

There may be no omnibenevolent agency in your POV now, but there wasn't any omnibenevolent agency back when you believed that there was either (if your current POV holds). Is the belief in the agency more important than it's actual existence? If you were capable of manufacturing that sense of insulation before - why not now....with the realization that it was internal?

Thats precisely it. My ignorance was bliss. But I didn't manufacture the insulation before. I simply knew no better, and had no desire to. Its after the realisation that this insulation melted away.

Perhaps God 'keeping people in check' wasn't the right way to put it. I didn't mean to imply that I believe the deity intervened in physical events to prevent wrongdoing. What I meant is that he would force people to behave by dangling the threat of damnation in front of them.

Do I believe human beings are capable of bettering themselves? Of course. Most of us are good. But I'm a pessimist. I'm always on the half empty.

---

I'm afraid of what people can do, should they be left to their own devices, left to conceive what is right and what is wrong for themselves.

There are moments when You need to trust people and yourself especially, while still being cautious to the best of your ability (safety-first). Fear is not wisdom, remember it well.

If You had to take an intercontinental flight while knowing that a terrorist was at an unspecified airport, You can stay away from people (as they may suicide-bomb) while proceeding with your travels.

That makes perfect sense. It appears that this problem is more to do with my perception of people than a transition in religious belief.

[Cyberman]

Perhaps God 'keeping people in check' wasn't the right way to put it. I didn't mean to imply that I believe the deity intervened in physical events to prevent wrongdoing. What I meant is that he would force people to behave by dangling the threat of damnation in front of them.

That's less a deity and more the parasites who proclaim to speak in its name. Most definitely they are the ones to beware when they do.

Do I believe human beings are capable of bettering themselves? Of course. Most of us are good. But I'm a pessimist. I'm always on the half empty.

To me, the glass is rarely half full or half empty. Rather, I try to see it as exactly twice as big as it needs to be. Most of the time it works.

[Walking Void]

To me, the glass is rarely half full or half empty.

And to me, the glass is both half-full and half-empty. Especially, it is 100% a glass.

I never get why pessimists and optimists debate this.

[Aran]

To me, the glass is rarely half full or half empty. Rather, I try to see it as exactly twice as big as it needs to be. Most of the time it works.

LOL I like that.

The one delivering the threat, be it supposed prophet or the big guy himself, was not the real issue for me. Damnation was the deterrent and I really did believe, fiercely.

[The Grand Nudger]

Thats precisely it. My ignorance was bliss.

You know, you hear that alot but I have a sneaking suspicion that it's a platitude - and maybe even worse. Ignorance is just ignorance, and that which you do not know -can- still hurt you. After all, here you are - not because your ignorance (I use that only because it's the term you chose) brought you joy....but because it has left you in a position where all things appear to have lost value as soon as the veil had been lifted, as soon as you realize that the emperor is naked.

But I didn't manufacture the insulation before. I simply knew no better, and had no desire to. Its after the realisation that this insulation melted away.

It had to have come from somewhere, and again whatever you built it out of (absence of knowledge/desire for knowledge) does not change the fact that you built it. Isn't it feasible that you may find a more suitable material to rebuild that same shelter? Something more durable...that doesn't crumble when faced with the brute force of reality?

Perhaps God 'keeping people in check' wasn't the right way to put it. I didn't mean to imply that I believe the deity intervened in physical events to prevent wrongdoing. What I meant is that he would force people to behave by dangling the threat of damnation in front of them.

The same questions apply. How well does the threat of damnation seem to be doing on that count, in your estimation?

Do I believe human beings are capable of bettering themselves? Of course. Most of us are good. But I'm a pessimist. I'm always on the half empty.

LOL, I've been told that I'm a pessimist as well....and this is not something that is likely to be changed very easy. However, when people call me a pessimist...I like to counter that I'm actually a hopeless optimist who just so happens to find himself routinely disappointed that things turned out to be shittier than he had expected or hoped for them to be.