Why Secular Morality is Superior

[DeistPaladin]

As promised, here's a list.

Let's start with the part where Moses speaks for your god without contradiction anywhere in the Bible, either at the time or for posterity:

Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Genocide and sex slavery in one order. Brutal but hardly unusual for the Bible for your "Lord" hath said 'no mercy':

Deut 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

Moses offers advice on behalf of your god on when it's time to kill the men, rape the women and enslave the kids vs. when it's just time to kill everyone:

Deut 20:10-17 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

And then there's the long trail of blood on the way to the promised land, as sanctioned by Yahweh, committed by his chosen and never condemned anywhere in your Holy Book:

Ex 17:13 Genocide of the Amalekites
Num 21:3 Genocide of the Canaanites
Num 21:35 Genocide of the Bashanites
Deut 2:21-22 Yahweh personally slaughters a bunch of people
Deut 2:34 Genocide of the Heshbonites
Deut 3:6 Genocide of the Bashanites (again)
Deut 25:19 Genocide of the Amalekites (again)
Josh 6:21 Merciless bloodbath at Jericho
Josh 8:21-26 Slaughter of the city of Ai
Josh 9:23 Enslavement of the Gibeonites
Josh 10:10-13 Slaughter of the Amorites
Josh 10:28-40 Massacre of seven kingdoms
Josh 11:11 Genocide of the Hazorites
Josh 11:21 Genocide of the Anakims
Judges 1:5 Genocide of the Caananites (again)
Judges 1:8 Massacre at Jerusalem
Judges 1:17 More Caanaites slaughtered at Hormah
Judges 1:25 Massacre at Bathel
Judges 8:17 The men of the city of Succoth are put to the sword
Judges 11:21 Yahweh delivers Sihon and Israel smote them all
Judges 11:13 Genocide of the Ammonites
Judges 18 Quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish
...will post more later...

For now: You worship a monster.

[Ryantology]

Will it be

a: You're just reading those verses out of context
b: God can't commit crimes because everything God does is good
c: A comparison between John V, God, and ants he killed because they messed with his patio
d: God knows everything and can do anything but could not come up with a method of problem-solving that doesn't involve mass murder (but that's totally not because he's evil guys)

[Savannahw]

I say it will drag out into a combination of all 4. Plus something crazy that you didn't think of.

[DeistPaladin]

Say what? You're a deist would you mind telling me why you believe in God? I always thought you atheist je suis très intéressé

Well, there's little practical difference between the two. For me, deism is a truce between my skeptical brain and lofty sentiments about the wonders of this universe, a grand machine as I see it. As Hitchens once said, "the natural universe is wonderful enough". It also fits with my hope for the future, that humanity has a noble destiny in spite of all our current struggles in our technological adolescence. We are evolving not just biologically but morally, and I hope our descendants look back on us like we look upon the Dark Ages.

[DeistPaladin]

Yet again with the ad Homs.

[fr0d0]

For now: You worship a monster.

Yet you present no evidence to support that statement. Nothing to suggest that you know that these actions were unjust.

So we can confidently dismiss your case here.

I guess you're basing all of this on 'a feeling' just like your belief in a deity.

[Ryantology]

Under what conditions are the mass murder of innocent people just?

[DeistPaladin]

So we can confidently dismiss your case here.

So you're comfortable worshiping a being that orders rape, genocide and slavery?

Got it. I don't even want to know you.

[John V]

My point is not a bare assertion. It's based on my reading of the Bible and my example of the 10Cs. Your "counter-example" isn't. Amish culture is very strict about conformity of their followers and they strictly outlaw the "evils" of blasphemy, idolatry and apostasy. It also promotes false "virtures", in their case eschewing modern culture. Hence, the Amish example actually proves my point.

You said two things are in the nature of religion – gaining more followers, and gaining increased obedience among existing followers. I clearly gave the Amish as a counterexample to the first, not the second. You’re applying them to the second, for which I gave a different counterexample. Are you being purposely misleading, or are you just too lazy to look back and follow the arguments?

[DeistPaladin]

You said two things are in the nature of religion – gaining more followers, and gaining increased obedience among existing followers. I clearly gave the Amish as a counterexample to the first, not the second. You’re applying them to the second, for which I gave a different counterexample. Are you being purposely misleading, or are you just too lazy to look back and follow the arguments?

Hmmm, let's go to the tape, shall we? And please read the whole thing this time.

1. (Perhaps most important) Theistic morality confuses the issues of what morality is and what is moral.

By its nature, religion will be concerned with gaining more followers and gaining increased obedience with its established followers. This is why when you read through the Bible or Koran, often what is described as "evil" are such victimless crimes as idolatry, blasphemy and apostasy. Other moral issues and labeled "abominations" have to do with failure to adhere to rituals and traditions, like not working on the Sabbath or not eating certain kinds of food.

Read the 10 commandments if you don't have time to read the whole Bible. You'll notice that the first four, the one's that Yahweh thought of first and foremost, have to do with religious adherence and not real moral issues. A few deal with how we treat others (don't murder, don't steal, etc) but the majority prohibit victimless crimes. This muddying of the waters is not helpful to our understand of what is moral or what morality is.

By contrast, secular morality focuses on the issue with laser-like precision. Morality is a function of how we treat our fellow sentient beings.

This obsession you have with finding small insular religions that are suspicious of outsiders (the exception and not the norm, based on total population of religions people and each religion's share of it) has caused you to focus on a part of my post which really isn't the point I was making. The point, if you read my entire post quoted above, is that religion focuses on the "evils" of victimless crimes like idolatry, blasphemy and apostasy or exalting useless "virtues" like prayer, rituals or church attendance and that these distractions are not only not helpful but confusing to the topic of morality, as outlined in the bolded section title.

Hence, the Amish example proves my point, since their "morality" is concerned with such things.

Tell you what, if we just delete that first sentence, will that help you zero in on the point and not get side-tracked by issues beside the point?