Atheism and morality

[Silver]

First illogical arguments and now semantics.

A theist is a theist, and you are a theist.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

I use 'theist' to mean 'believes in the existence of a theistic god'. If you don't use it that way, I don't care. That's how I use it and it is how I intend on continuing using it, so get used to it.

By all means find some dictionary and look it up and gleefully tell me that Mr Dictionary says something different. I don't care. Dictionaries just follow popular usage and popular usage is often confused, misleading and silly because the population is largely composed of people who possess those attributes.

I've refrained from watching this thread too closely because it becomes tempting to comment and yet I found out within 3 posts that it's useless reasoning with you.

BUT, i'm so glad I checked in and saw this.

You could be a comedian you know? It's a wonderful gift.

[Psykhronic]

So if you are the only one using it that way - its correct? You realize language is about how we communicate amongst each other and not ourselves... right?

[LostLocke]

What you mean is that until the 'philosopher' gives me answers I like, I will trot out ghastly recipes.

That might be a valid statement if you had given any answers at all.
So far, you have not.

[Inigo]

So if you are the only one using it that way - its correct? You realize language is about how we communicate amongst each other and not ourselves... right?

You know how I am using the term. I have left you in no doubt about it. Communication: done.

Now, that I've communicated perhaps you like to address my arguments.

You realise you're not entitled to there being a refutation of my case?

[Psykhronic]

So if you are the only one using it that way - its correct? You realize language is about how we communicate amongst each other and not ourselves... right?

You know how I am using the term. I have left you in no doubt about it. Communication: done.

Now, that I've communicated perhaps you like to address my arguments.

You realise you're not entitled to there being a refutation of my case?

No, you havent. Don't speak for my emotions. I think your way of using the term is naive and stupid as fuck. But fuck it, no use arguing with you.

Again, says you. Thanks for proving my point again and again.

[pocaracas]

You say that I am wrong to distinguish between moral beliefs and morality itself (the object of the belief). Can you explain?

People (including myself) have done so, but you just ignore and keep trumping your "moral beliefs" thing... You failed to notice that either people are not understanding what you mean by "moral beliefs" or they understand, blow holes in your "logic" and you don't even notice...

Beliefs have objects - things they are about. So there is always a belief, and then what the belief is about.

yeah... like gods, fidelity of the spouse, tomorrow's weather....

If you accept that there are moral beliefs, what are they about if not morality?

Who said I accepted such a thing?
There are morals.
There are beliefs.
But "moral beliefs" is something I can't comprehend.
And it's this very first principle in your logic that is faulty, the premise.... it's the same problem of other logical sequences that end up with: a god exists.
There's always a premise that doesn't correlate with reality.

They're not beliefs about cheese. They're beliefs about morality. hence 'moral' beliefs. I don't know what you mean by a moral belief unless you mean a belief about morality. That's how I use the term.

This "explanation" didn't help... "moral beliefs are beliefs about morality"... wow... just wow!

So, my belief that Xing is wrong is a moral belief for wrongness is a moral feature and I believe Xing to have it.

If an action is perceived as wrong by a human being, it is perceived as wrong.... not believed as wrong... see how your premise is failing to make sense in my head?

The wrongness is not the belief. That's incoherent. For then what is the belief 'about'? itself? How can a belief be about itself?

And here you enter the common theist word salad in an attempt to make some point about a word...
This is why I said you sounded like a theist

YOu then proceed to do what everyone else does - you provide a causal story about the development of our moral beliefs. Yes, assume I accept it. That is not a story about how morality has come into being. It is just a story about how we have come to 'believe' that morality exists.

If you've been paying attention, I refuse to attribute a belief to morals... It makes no sense, to me.
We've come to accept that certain behaviors benefit the group, the tribe, society. This group of behaviors has been labeled "moral rules".
The word "morality" means something like "conformity to these moral rules".
The casual story I and everyone provided you tells you how our species developed the rules... some are so ancient that have become embedded in our genes, some require teaching.
But all are grounded on behaviors and their consequences to the other elements of the group and/or to the group as a whole.


This is how I view morals.
This is why I view your notion of "moral belief" as nonsensical.
People have told you this, but you dismissed it with a wave of the hand, trumping your nonsense all over the place...
I understand it is very difficult to get a new concept across, but you could try a bit better to explain your "moral beliefs"... because, as I see them, they make no sense.

[Inigo]

First illogical arguments and now semantics.

A theist is a theist, and you are a theist.

Illogical arguments? the arguments I presented were deductively valid. How can a deductively valid argument be illogical? That's the polar opposite of illogical. You literally could not be more wrong. I bet you stubbornly drive on the wrong side of the road.

---

You say that I am wrong to distinguish between moral beliefs and morality itself (the object of the belief). Can you explain?

People (including myself) have done so, but you just ignore and keep trumping your "moral beliefs" thing... You failed to notice that either people are not understanding what you mean by "moral beliefs" or they understand, blow holes in your "logic" and you don't even notice...

Beliefs have objects - things they are about. So there is always a belief, and then what the belief is about.

yeah... like gods, fidelity of the spouse, tomorrow's weather....

If you accept that there are moral beliefs, what are they about if not morality?

Who said I accepted such a thing?
There are morals.
There are beliefs.
But "moral beliefs" is something I can't comprehend.
And it's this very first principle in your logic that is faulty, the premise.... it's the same problem of other logical sequences that end up with: a god exists.
There's always a premise that doesn't correlate with reality.

They're not beliefs about cheese. They're beliefs about morality. hence 'moral' beliefs. I don't know what you mean by a moral belief unless you mean a belief about morality. That's how I use the term.

This "explanation" didn't help... "moral beliefs are beliefs about morality"... wow... just wow!

So, my belief that Xing is wrong is a moral belief for wrongness is a moral feature and I believe Xing to have it.

If an action is perceived as wrong by a human being, it is perceived as wrong.... not believed as wrong... see how your premise is failing to make sense in my head?

The wrongness is not the belief. That's incoherent. For then what is the belief 'about'? itself? How can a belief be about itself?

And here you enter the common theist word salad in an attempt to make some point about a word...
This is why I said you sounded like a theist

YOu then proceed to do what everyone else does - you provide a causal story about the development of our moral beliefs. Yes, assume I accept it. That is not a story about how morality has come into being. It is just a story about how we have come to 'believe' that morality exists.

If you've been paying attention, I refuse to attribute a belief to morals... It makes no sense, to me.
We've come to accept that certain behaviors benefit the group, the tribe, society. This group of behaviors has been labeled "moral rules".
The word "morality" means something like "conformity to these moral rules".
The casual story I and everyone provided you tells you how our species developed the rules... some are so ancient that have become embedded in our genes, some require teaching.
But all are grounded on behaviors and their consequences to the other elements of the group and/or to the group as a whole.


This is how I view morals.
This is why I view your notion of "moral belief" as nonsensical.
People have told you this, but you dismissed it with a wave of the hand, trumping your nonsense all over the place...
I understand it is very difficult to get a new concept across, but you could try a bit better to explain your "moral beliefs"... because, as I see them, they make no sense.

If you can't grasp these concepts or distinctions then I'm afraid there's nothing more I can do. There's not much point in you trying to address my argument, because you're just not going to: you don't know what any of my premises means, it seems. Now, that degree of failure is beyond my ability to correct.

[Psykhronic]

Yes, the failure is on everyone else JUST NOT UNDERSTANDING YOU *SOB and not the piss-poor way you have been explaining yourself.

[Inigo]

Yes, the failure is on everyone else JUST NOT UNDERSTANDING YOU *SOB and not the piss-poor way you have been explaining yourself.

Well, he understands - or seems to - that beliefs always have objects (things they are 'about'). And he understands that a belief cannot have itself as an object. So, what a belief is about, and the belief itself, are different. This much he seems - seems - to grasp. So he gets one star. But, inexplicably, he can't then grasp that this means moral beliefs must be about something- they must have an object. And that their object is, well, morality. And that this means that morality and the belief are different. This he does not seem capable of grasping. I can only conclude that he is either some kind of cretin or he does not like where grasping it would lead.