Religion and rituality

[Lucanus]

When I started to detach from my religion (Roman Catholicism) I also started to feel disgusted by the rites and prayers which, at that time, I thought were just leftovers of a conception of God that hasn't anything to share with the true message of Christianity.

Yet as my present position developed I could not help but think about how rituality is actually the "centre of mass" (no pun intended) of any religion.

Now, the question comes to why religions must have a determined ritual set of prayers. The options are many and varied:
1) Just like the times of the day and the year cyclically repeat themselves so is human activity; therefore, also worshipping
god(s) falls under such cyclical behaviour.

2) Rituality was and still is used to have a "cleaner shot" at brainwashing their members and to deeply root Religion itself to the most basic things in the member's life.

3) Rituality is needed for a strong community to form stable bases and relationships.

I can't think of anything else at the moment but both atheists and theists shall be free to offer their own opinion to the debate.

Good night!

[pineapplebunnybounce]

hm, i'm sure there are some psychological explanations for rituals (nothing comes to mind right now).

But, i think that it's just human of us to have to have rituals especially when dealing with something you cannot feel/see/hear/perceive. everything in our life we have to perceive, or it isn't there. i think rituals is in a way, human's way of interacting with what they cannot perceive, but think is real. because it's human nature that everything that's real should have a tangible something to give meaning to it. Also it's our way of achieving something. For example, if i want to go shopping, i have to leave home and get a bus to the mall. i did something real to achieve something real. to achieve something "spiritual", the only way we know how is to do tangible things. The effect wouldn't be the same, if religion is all in our heads, because you won't be sure that others think that way, and after a while, you forget, because thoughts are not as tangible as actions.

[Angrboda]

Many rituals used in religion are a reliable, predictable, and potent way of bringing about an altered state of consciousness. Think of a kid spinning around until she gets dizzy. She is provoking, by the very simple mechanism of spinning, an altered state of consciousness which is powerfully different from her base state. There are additional elements in religion, reflecting its more complex social and cultural function, but this is likely one of the core "causes" of ritualized behavior. People in Asia often grow up with meditation as an automatic habit they acquire early on; same principle: inducing a powerful and significantly altered state of consciousness. (I have a book on Zen and the brain which I'm episodically dipping into, and one theme that is emerging is that deep states of meditation parallel properties of various stages of sleep, inhibiting some functions, disinhibiting others, and so on, while retaining consciousness and lucidity. It's a thought provoking idea.)

Sam Harris has observed, I think rightly, that living is a constant act of engaging in behaviors to alter our state of consciousness. When we feel hunger, we eat food in order to reach a non-hungry state of mind. We pursue careers to earn money to buy things to make us happy (alter consciousness from a less happy state to a more happy one). And so on.

An important question, I haven't answered, is do we seek altered states of consciousness for their own sake, and why, evolutionarily, do we do it, if so. Or do we pair altered states of consciousness with socially or reproductively advantageous behaviors to "super-size" the motivation to engage in such behaviors? Or is the pleasure derived from pursuing and obtaining altered states of consciousness just an epiphenomenon, a by-product of having brains that are good at non-altered state processing tasks, which, yield novelty when pushed into an altered state?

There is an interesting documentary on the co-evolution of plants like cannabis and humans which is worth seeking out. (I'll look later.) But drugs which induce an altered state of consciousness have been a constant companion, from alcohol to the bark of a willow tree to the cocoa plant's leaves. You might say evoking altered states of consciousness co-evolved between our cognitive needs, and the behavior of things and animals in our environment. There's even a documentary which suggests that beer is responsible for civilization. (Also worth seeking out.)

[genkaus]

People in Asia often grow up with meditation as an automatic habit they acquire early on; same principle: inducing a powerful and significantly altered state of consciousness. (I have a book on Zen and the brain which I'm episodically dipping into, and one theme that is emerging is that deep states of meditation parallel properties of various stages of sleep, inhibiting some functions, disinhibiting others, and so on, while retaining consciousness and lucidity. It's a thought provoking idea.)

That never worked for me. I was familiar with the concept since childhood - having seen my grandmothers meditate every day - so when one of our teachers told us that we should all meditate atleast 15-30 minutes every day, I was on board. I would tell my family not to disturb me, lock myself in my room and spend some 20 minutes sitting in lotus position, trying to focus my mind. And all I ever got was extremely bored and pins and needles in my legs.

So, eventually, I gave up on meditation and instead started spending that time masturbating. And I can tell you, it was a much more reliable way of inducing a powerful and significantly altered state of consciousness and the results were much more satisfactory.

[Whateverist]

Many rituals used in religion are a reliable, predictable, and potent way of bringing about an altered state of consciousness. Think of a kid spinning around until she gets dizzy. She is provoking, by the very simple mechanism of spinning, an altered state of consciousness which is powerfully different from her base state. There are additional elements in religion, reflecting its more complex social and cultural function, but this is likely one of the core "causes" of ritualized behavior. People in Asia often grow up with meditation as an automatic habit they acquire early on; same principle: inducing a powerful and significantly altered state of consciousness. (I have a book on Zen and the brain which I'm episodically dipping into, and one theme that is emerging is that deep states of meditation parallel properties of various stages of sleep, inhibiting some functions, disinhibiting others, and so on, while retaining consciousness and lucidity. It's a thought provoking idea.)

Sam Harris has observed, I think rightly, that living is a constant act of engaging in behaviors to alter our state of consciousness. When we feel hunger, we eat food in order to reach a non-hungry state of mind. We pursue careers to earn money to buy things to make us happy (alter consciousness from a less happy state to a more happy one). And so on.

An important question, I haven't answered, is do we seek altered states of consciousness for their own sake, and why, evolutionarily, do we do it, if so. Or do we pair altered states of consciousness with socially or reproductively advantageous behaviors to "super-size" the motivation to engage in such behaviors? Or is the pleasure derived from pursuing and obtaining altered states of consciousness just an epiphenomenon, a by-product of having brains that are good at non-altered state processing tasks, which, yield novelty when pushed into an altered state?

There is an interesting documentary on the co-evolution of plants like cannabis and humans which is worth seeking out. (I'll look later.) But drugs which induce an altered state of consciousness have been a constant companion, from alcohol to the bark of a willow tree to the cocoa plant's leaves. You might say evoking altered states of consciousness co-evolved between our cognitive needs, and the behavior of things and animals in our environment. There's even a documentary which suggests that beer is responsible for civilization. (Also worth seeking out.)

There is an interesting essay on the relationship between humans and psycho active drugs such as marijuana in the book Botany of Desire by Michael Palin.

[Lucanus]

Maybe there isn't "one" reason for rituals and prayers, and actually all of the possibilities we have brought about are not mutually exclusive and can be combined to form a sort of "genealogic" theory of rituality.
Of course to "experience the supernatural" we have to alter our perceptions.

But, I think, we are all looking at this from a rational and scientific point of view. I would really like to know how religious people see the issue.

[Godscreated]

Maybe there isn't "one" reason for rituals and prayers, and actually all of the possibilities we have brought about are not mutually exclusive and can be combined to form a sort of "genealogic" theory of rituality.
Of course to "experience the supernatural" we have to alter our perceptions.

But, I think, we are all looking at this from a rational and scientific point of view. I would really like to know how religious people see the issue.

I do not alter my perception to experience God, in prayer I talk to Him like I would with a friend or family member, because God is my friend and I belong to His family.
Christ rebuked the religious leaders of His day for the rituals, especially those that dealt with leaving others outside of worship and those that put some on pedestals. We have some things in our churches that we might call ritual, but in the case of the Baptist it's to bring the church together in worship of God. There are rituals in today's church that are beneficial, now I'm speaking of the protestant churches. The Catholics and Orthodox will have to speak up for their rituals. Prayer should never be a ritual in any denomination.

[Bad Wolf]

I do not alter my perception to experience God, in prayer I talk to Him like I would with a friend or family member,
[/quote]

So when you pray, you literally hear a voice in your head answer back? I can't be the first to suggest this but I think you should go to a mental health professional. You could be suffering from schizophrenia

[Lucanus]

So when you pray, you literally hear a voice in your head answer back? I can't be the first to suggest this but I think you should go to a mental health professional. You could be suffering from schizophrenia

Please no ad homs.

GC, you are right, many religions do not necessarily involve an alteration of your state of mind. You are also right in your distinction between prayer and ritual.

But if god is so "personal", what is the need of worshipping in company with others?

[Godscreated]

So when you pray, you literally hear a voice in your head answer back? I can't be the first to suggest this but I think you should go to a mental health professional. You could be suffering from schizophrenia

Please no ad homs.

GC, you are right, many religions do not necessarily involve an alteration of your state of mind. You are also right in your distinction between prayer and ritual.

But if god is so "personal", what is the need of worshipping in company with others?

The church serves the function of several things and ritual can distract from it's purpose. The church is a family in which Christians can find support, take for instance in Egypt at this time, who would the Christians there depend on with them being targets of another religion that shows nothing but hate for them. The church (family) finds it's strength in relationship with each other and with God, the church serves the purpose of teaching those who are newly entering Christianity. The church is a witness to the community as to who God is when the church is serving the community, that's one reason the church is referred as the bride of Christ, we are representing Christ in the community. If we did not worship together we would not find the strength nor have the strength to help those in need. Christ is the foundation on which the church is built, without Him there would be no church. Christianity is a personal relationship with God and the family of God just as family members have personal relationships with other family members and the family as a whole has a relationship with a family member, for what ever reason that family member might need. All strengthens the one and the one strengthens the family and God strengthens us all.