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RE: All This Talk of 'Morals'
October 24, 2013 at 6:59 am
(October 24, 2013 at 5:48 am)Tonus Wrote: Religion can have a more subtle effect on people. For example, most of the JWs I know are smart, friendly, hospitable people. What I would refer to as "good people." Kind, caring, generous, and so on. Yet if commanded to do so, they would shun a fellow JW who had been removed from the organization. Note that being removed can be for something like joining a different Christian denomination. They would be shunned even by their closest friends and family, cut off from any communication or companionship. These would be those same smart, friendly, hospitable, kind, caring and generous people, suddenly turned very cold and distant, and in some cases very very cruel. Because they believe that they are helping a person to reconnect with god. That is, to me, the kind of damage that religion can do. Subtle yet devastating, and it turns otherwise wonderful people into very scary people.
Perfectly said: religion can't make a good person bad, but it can make them more susceptible to bad suggestions under the mistaken impression that they're actually serving some greater, inaccessible good. It slides hate in under the skin, by pretending it's somehow worthy in the eyes of god.
That's why it's so difficult to talk about this stuff with the christians here, since they're all so quick to protest that all the christians they know are nice, good people; and they're right... when they're among friends. But the Jesus-switch flips when those people, the ones the pastor said it's okay to exclude, are in sight.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: All This Talk of 'Morals'
October 24, 2013 at 8:25 am
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2013 at 8:29 am by John V.)
(October 23, 2013 at 6:17 pm)freedomfromfallacy Wrote: My sincere apologies if my OP left the impression that I was implying that being a christian (made me into a jerk), it did not. What being a christian DID do, however, was to bolster jerk-like qualities I already possessed, and ever since I ditched the dogma I've found a REAL path to being (good and decent), whatever those things are. The implication is that christianity strengthens one's ability to be a jerk, Christianity strengthened your ability to be a jerk. If I'm fighting with my wife, when I read the Bible I end up reconciling quickly. Christianity weakens my ability to be a jerk. And if some of you think I'm a jerk on here, you should see some of the stuff I delete without posting because Christianity gets the better of me.
(October 24, 2013 at 12:41 am)Sejanus Wrote: I'm sick of this argument, like who the fuck defines what a successful christian is? Let me guess - it's someone who adheres to the exact same rules of your particular denomination of christianity, and all other christians aren't true christians. Incorrect. However, I'm not aware of any denomination that argues against this:
Galations 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
So it's reasonable to say that a professing Christian who doesn't possess these (as OP apparently didn't) isn't a successful Christian.
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RE: All This Talk of 'Morals'
October 24, 2013 at 9:26 am
(October 24, 2013 at 8:25 am)John V Wrote: So it's reasonable to say that a professing Christian who doesn't possess these (as OP apparently didn't) isn't a successful Christian.
Then there are no successful Christians.
Glad we cleared that up.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: All This Talk of 'Morals'
October 24, 2013 at 9:29 am
(October 24, 2013 at 9:26 am)Faith No More Wrote: Then there are no successful Christians. I agree that there are no completely successful Christians by this measure. There is a reason Christianity features a savior, you know.
It's more a matter of extent. Some people attain more of these fruits than others, and so are more successful, or less unsuccessful, however you'd like to look at it.
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RE: All This Talk of 'Morals'
October 24, 2013 at 9:38 am
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2013 at 9:39 am by max-greece.)
"Perfectly said: religion can't make a good person bad, but it can make them more susceptible to bad suggestions under the mistaken impression that they're actually serving some greater, inaccessible good. It slides hate in under the skin, by pretending it's somehow worthy in the eyes of god. "
The evidence would suggest otherwise. What is the betting that if you had met the guys that flew planes into buildings on 9/11 when they were kids they would have appeared to be perfectly normal little boys.
I would argue that religion, along with some political ideologies are a requirement to get people to do really evil things.
As Chris Hitchens used to say:
"Think of a good thing an theist can do that an atheist can't.
No? OK - try this one.
Now think of an evil thing a religious person might do that an atheist wouldn't. Oh, you already have, and another...."
Kuusi palaa, ja on viimeinen kerta kun annan vaimoni laittaa jouluvalot!
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RE: All This Talk of 'Morals'
October 24, 2013 at 9:51 am
(October 24, 2013 at 9:29 am)John V Wrote: (October 24, 2013 at 9:26 am)Faith No More Wrote: Then there are no successful Christians. I agree that there are no completely successful Christians by this measure. There is a reason Christianity features a savior, you know.
It's more a matter of extent. Some people attain more of these fruits than others, and so are more successful, or less unsuccessful, however you'd like to look at it.
Sorry, humans, all humans have a range of success and failure. Your god claim and comic book are not needed to explain human actions. You simply bought a placebo.
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RE: All This Talk of 'Morals'
October 24, 2013 at 10:00 am
(October 23, 2013 at 3:51 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: (October 23, 2013 at 3:07 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: You can't really claim to be "more moral" if there isn't a Moral Law Giver, there's no real meaning to the word.
And yet, people do make that claim.
Whether you know it or not, you're in the same boat - because you can't demonstrate that your 'moral law giver' exists. All you've got is a collection of dusty old books, with unknown/questionable authorship.
I think I'm going to have to agree with the Tool-of-Christ on this one. It probably is mostly the religious who concern themselves with being 'more moral'. For those not infected it is enough to have acted in good conscience where it matters to do so.
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RE: All This Talk of 'Morals'
October 24, 2013 at 10:27 am
(October 24, 2013 at 9:29 am)John V Wrote: .
It's more a matter of extent. Some people attain more of these fruits than others, and so are more successful, or less unsuccessful, however you'd like to look at it.
Given that, how do you justify implying that the OP wasn't a successful Christian?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: All This Talk of 'Morals'
October 24, 2013 at 10:48 am
(October 24, 2013 at 10:27 am)Faith No More Wrote: Given that, how do you justify implying that the OP wasn't a successful Christian? Because he freely admits to having those fruits in much less measure than many Christians I've known. If you're just arguing semantics, I'll restate it as relatively unsuccessful.
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RE: All This Talk of 'Morals'
October 24, 2013 at 11:20 am
(October 24, 2013 at 10:48 am)John V Wrote: (October 24, 2013 at 10:27 am)Faith No More Wrote: Given that, how do you justify implying that the OP wasn't a successful Christian? Because he freely admits to having those fruits in much less measure than many Christians I've known. If you're just arguing semantics, I'll restate it as relatively unsuccessful.
Christianity is not required to explain the success or failure of any individual. Your god claim is merely a placebo you bought, nothing more. You'll feel alot better once you realize you do not have to defend your magic man claim. Try understanding WHY you don't buy Allah as your magic man claim, then you'll understand why we reject your magic man claim as well.
Wanting a god to be real is all you are mentally doing. Face that then you will understand our position.
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