The Men's Rights Movement: I Just Don't Get It.

[Esquilax]

No one is blaming women for mens problems. I just think feminists should be equally concerned with inequality on the mens part as they are with their own.

And I'm wondering why you think that is, at a functional level: can you name another special interest group where the expectation is that they'll take up causes based around literally the opposite of their group? Do racial equality groups need to start solving the problems white people have? Should gay rights groups start dealing with straight person issues?

By and large, feminists are concerned with men's equality too, because as a group their goal is gender equality, which requires... you know, equality among the genders. But they're a specific group too, focusing on specific issues based upon a demographic that has a history of unequal treatment. That said, solving one set of problems doesn't obligate us to discard our interest in all others, it just means we're doing something else right now. Besides, given how many of the areas that men are disadvantaged in have, at their core, basal assumptions that feminism is trying to correct, I think you'll find that a properly applied feminist agenda solves many of them by default.

[FlyingNarwhal]

Since I'm one of the ones you bolded, I'd like to point out that the majority of my post dealt with issues in which men ARE treated unfairly in ways that hurt society as a whole.

Technically yes if we are talking in terms of how many words you used. But you listed two issues men face and then continued to say that the rest we should just keep quiet about. And I'm not trying to say that you should be aware of all of men's issues, but be mindful that we have more than just two.

I'll add another issue here that someone else touched on earlier: rape. Rape of men (by men or women) is treated as a joke, which is shameful and reflects harmful stereotypes.

Yes, the usual view is that if it was done by a women there is no way it could have been rape because we are supposed to enjoy it. And if done by a man it is thought that we didn't fight hard enough to stop it.

Men have problems, and AS I SAID, some of those problems are a result of societal bias. In the entire fabric of human society, however, it's just ridiculous to claim that men are oppressed as a group. There are areas of bias, but it doesn't really compare to the institutional, systematic, centuries-old oppression of anyone with a vagina.

Luckily, we don't have to compare the two to be outraged at cultural misogyny or to be outraged at the treatment of male rape victims. Both are bad things.

We are an oppressed group though. Again we are so oppressed that we don't have the option most of the time to say we are without facing ridicule. When the chips were laid out and gender roles assigned centuries ago, men didn't just give women all the bad chips and kept the good ones for themselves. We took a good amount of bad chips ourselves.

Since the beginning of human civilization who have all of your soldiers been? Men.
The draft which the U.S. still has in place conscripts only one gender. Men.
Who first? Women and children first.
Who gets trapped in mine shafts and work in higher risk jobs. Men.

Compared to the lives of women, our lives are considered lesser.

Even as progress for women has been made (which I'm all for) progress for men has remained stagnant. Women can now work in what would be considered traditionally male careers. But how many men do you see working in early childcare, or become stay at home dads while the woman works? Not too many, because although women have been supported to venture into those non-traditional careers, men are still being shunned to do the same.

I'm not sure what rights you are speaking of. If you're fighting for the right to have better birth control for men, you will find no advocates more passionate than feminists. What right is it that you think men are fighting for that cause people to call them woman-haters?

To be fair, I am sure that while a lot of these men's rights activists are looking for fairness on a few rights, what they are primarily looking for is a change in cultural attitude.

But the right that men are really fighting for is just the right to say how we feel. Like I said, we can't even say that we feel oppressed without it becoming a debate, when pretty much any other group that makes the same claim gets open arms immediately.

Personally, I think the main reason for this is because we used to be the oppressors. But we are not anymore and have not for a few generations, save for a few assholes. And there is this idea that it is impossible for the previous oppressor to become the oppressed.

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In regards to men being treated unfairly and not given equal advocacy regarding custody of children, I do see a very serious problem here. But is this particular problem the fault of women? The MRM would have you think so, according to them it is women manipulating the system that created the problem. But the tradition of giving women custody of the children is far older than modern feminism. Women are routinely granted preference in custodial issues due to an ingrained belief that women belong in the kitchen, raising the kids and that daddy's sole purpose is to pay the bills. These are the traditional roles of men and women. Who created these roles, who enforces these rules? A sexist male dominated patriarchal society! So the MRM has no business of scapegoating women when it comes to custodial issues...the blame rest solely on the values of a patriarchal society. Men if you have issues with women being afforded preference in custody blame the patriarchy not women.

Two sides to the same coin bud. You may see it that way, but the way I see it the court system looks down on men raising children. This particular problem is dual sided, and gender roles affect us both on this one. It's not just traditionally seen that women are supposed to raise kids, but also that men can't.

[Zazzy]

We are an oppressed group though. Again we are so oppressed that we don't have the option most of the time to say we are without facing ridicule.

Well, if this is the world you see around you, I'm not going to convince you otherwise, but it's a different planet than the place I live in. Good luck with that.

But the right that men are really fighting for is just the right to say how we feel. Like I said, we can't even say that we feel oppressed without it becoming a debate

I don't see anyone anywhere telling men what they can and cannot say- this sounds suspiciously like being pissed off when people disagree with what you say. If you don't want to be seen as a whiner, then don't whine.

Personally, I think the main reason for this is because we used to be the oppressors. But we are not anymore and have not for a few generations, save for a few assholes.

And you wonder why people may react badly to your viewpoint? This is one of the most asinine statements I've ever seen on this forum. Again, good luck with winning the hearts and minds of women with this.

[Bad Wolf]

No one is blaming women for mens problems. I just think feminists should be equally concerned with inequality on the mens part as they are with their own.

To be fair, I've known a few that are

I meant no one is this thread, I am very well aware of the bad guys out there

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Besides, given how many of the areas that men are disadvantaged in have, at their core, basal assumptions that feminism is trying to correct, I think you'll find that a properly applied feminist agenda solves many of them by default.

The problem is that the feminist agenda isn't being applied properly or at least we don't hear about it when it is. The radicals feminists basically represent feminism as opposed to regular feminists, simply because they get more media attention.

[bladevalant546]

I have been looking into the whole gender equality as of late. I started looking into female rights activism throughout history (with the help of my girlfriend) then proceeding through the evolution of how it evolved. Then I went into misogyny and misandry and how it is seen in society. What I have seen is a mosaic of inequlities, double standards, and injustices. This mosaic I feel gives rise to these fringe factions, with that said we must look at what some of these fringe factions are stating.

To remain on topic, the men’s rights movements do actually have a lot of valid observations concerning their objections. We must be careful not to ignore their voice because the title. In fact the very thought of people not even listening to them shows partly and issue in of itself. Now one thing I must note here I am not advocating chauvinists movements nor endorsing their entire view points, so let us take a look at the observations they are talking about. I see three primary issues they talk about, Medias portrayal of men, Court system concerning men in regards to sexual, domestic, and martial affairs, and reproductive rights.

Media’s portrayal of men is a hot topic as the media does portray males, usually as dumb, violent, and/or incompetent. While this is mostly answered through the fact that the media portrays both wrong in order to increase sales. The solution here has already been presented as most logical feminists groups point to the fact that the media has a false image of what makes a “man” a “man”. So I think there is valid cause to make this known, however I think the solution is affecting both genders.

The Court system in my opinion has huge injustices on both ends and it depends on geography. However, for the sake of this topic I will focus on the male side of the issue. When it comes to physical harm, the male gets the shaft in a lot of cases. In the south where I live (which their views of rape are the opposite.) a female can literally go all fight club and put a man in jail for at least 24 hours. Also, in Texas a woman can use this abuse thing and mess up a guy’s life. Concerning sex and martial parts of the courts. Women get alimony (for whatever reason) nearly has a guaranteed chance for getting the kids, and the obvious taking half or more of the man’s material possessions. In terms of reproductive rights, women have almost a monopoly on this. With the ability to force a man to pay for a child, to forcing a man to give up the child to abortion (which it fine since it is her choice.). Now there is head way in the male contraceptives which I think will remedy this a lot and perhaps cause little bit of issue.

So in short, we should be equalists and work together!

[Tiberius]

No one is blaming women for mens problems. I just think feminists should be equally concerned with inequality on the mens part as they are with their own.

And I'm wondering why you think that is, at a functional level: can you name another special interest group where the expectation is that they'll take up causes based around literally the opposite of their group? Do racial equality groups need to start solving the problems white people have? Should gay rights groups start dealing with straight person issues?

You are confusing me. You seem to have been arguing throughout this thread that feminists do support equal rights for men, and the men's rights movement is effectively pointless (my interpretation of your words).

You said: "properly executed feminism basically is egalitarianism"

If this is true, then I'm afraid that by that statement, we should expect feminists to take up causes based around inequality of men.

I also take issue with your statement that the inequality of men in society is "literally the opposite of their group" when talking about feminists. I'm sorry, but the 'literal' opposite of feminism is the oppression of women, not the men's rights movement.

One more nit-pick:

Do racial equality groups need to start solving the problems white people have?

Yes, of course they should. A racial equality group by definition should be trying to solve all the problems associated with racial equality, regardless of the race. I believe you probably meant "<insert-non-white-race-here> equality groups".

[Esquilax]

The problem is that the feminist agenda isn't being applied properly or at least we don't hear about it when it is. The radicals feminists basically represent feminism as opposed to regular feminists, simply because they get more media attention.

Agreed. There's also this reflexive dislike of the label "feminist," for a lot of people, based largely on the image of the man hating radical feminist, and the perceived loss of credibility one would get hit with if they used the label. I guess that's fine, since a lot of people who don't identify as feminist still do feminist work, in a sense; if the term is a shell that we need to shed, then so be it. All those fine people working for actual equality are doing the work of feminism anyway, at least the way I see it.

[Esquilax]

You are confusing me. You seem to have been arguing throughout this thread that feminists do support equal rights for men, and the men's rights movement is effectively pointless (my interpretation of your words).

You said: "properly executed feminism basically is egalitarianism"

If this is true, then I'm afraid that by that statement, we should expect feminists to take up causes based around inequality of men.

Sorry, maybe I'm not being clear : I think of it in terms of genres, sort of. The overarching goal of feminism is gender equality, meaning men's rights and women's rights equally, but the current action plan is redressing systemic inequalities regarding women specifically.

Now, that doesn't mean there's a lack of interest in men's rights, or even antipathy toward acting on them; I feel- and many other feminists do too, from what I've heard- that the knock on consequences of the current feminist movement will also have positive effects for men too, in a number of the areas that men's rights activists complain about. After all, disabling the current structure of stereotypical gender roles would not only remove the disadvantages women have, but also balance out the unfair advantages they have in issues like custody disputes, etc.

I also take issue with your statement that the inequality of men in society is "literally the opposite of their group" when talking about feminists. I'm sorry, but the 'literal' opposite of feminism is the oppression of women, not the men's rights movement.

Fair point.

One more nit-pick:

Do racial equality groups need to start solving the problems white people have?

Yes, of course they should. A racial equality group by definition should be trying to solve all the problems associated with racial equality, regardless of the race. I believe you probably meant "<insert-non-white-race-here> equality groups".

Yep, I think so. Good catch.

[kılıç_mehmet]

I have been noticing like all across this vast universe we call the internets that there has been a growing movement of troglodytes calling themselves men and doing a lot bitching about women. They call themselves Men's Rights activist and they live in this virtual world called the Manosphere where they choose not to show weakness towards women by deciding instead of engaging women they will go it alone (I think that is a euphemism for having a romantic relationship with one's hand).

People, I am not kidding, this whole Men's Rights is all over the place. I have seen it on Facebook, YouTubes and ReEdit. It is literally all over the place like a demented monkey throwing crap everywhere.

But the shit that gets me, this movement has nothing to do with addressing issues dealing with men but with hating on women for some reason. If one looks at many of the websites the Manosphere people have created all one reads is that women are evil, we men have been wronged by women and that makes us mad. In fact that seems to be the sole purpose of the Men's Rights Movement.

Any cursory reading will show you that these "men" hate women the same way that the Nazi's hated on the Jews. Women are to blame for just about everything especially erectile dysfunction. And the most sickening thing I see coming for the Men's Right Movement is this insistence to justify every wrong men commit against women, I have seen them justify rape, beating and the shooting of an innocent twelve year old girl by the Taliban just because she wanted an education.

I just don't get. Can someone please explain it to me?

Fuck if I care. Really, I don't care about rights movements based on things like sex and sexuality. They are retarted and amount to nothing when it comes to doing anything of real value.

[Zazzy]

Media’s portrayal of men is a hot topic as the media does portray males, usually as dumb, violent, and/or incompetent.

Agreed to a certain extent- it's a lower midlle class thing: the dumb fat pig married to a wife who usually makes fun of him (there are SO many TV shows with this theme), but I don't think men get this worse than women do- the dumb girl or the bitch are portrayed as often. And I think there are plenty of smart menand women in the media. I don't think this is unequal- it's just that the stereotypes are different, not worse for either. It's possible I could be swayed from this position, though.

When it comes to physical harm, the male gets the shaft in a lot of cases. In the south where I live (which their views of rape are the opposite.) a female can literally go all fight club and put a man in jail for at least 24 hours. Also, in Texas a woman can use this abuse thing and mess up a guy’s life.

I live in Texas, too, and you're right. But again, men mess women up pretty badly on a pretty regular basis, so I don't see this as an inequality issue, either. I don't have the stats, but I don't think the majority of serious domestic cases are women beating on men (although I recently read of a case in Texas where a woman killed her boyfriend with a high-heeled shoe). This is not to say that woman-on-man violence is not an issue, but I seriously doubt it's an even-steven thing.

Concerning sex and martial parts of the courts. Women get alimony (for whatever reason) nearly has a guaranteed chance for getting the kids, and the obvious taking half or more of the man’s material possessions.

Alimony has always confused me, but then again, I have a good education and earning power. I know plenty of women who have given up careers to raise kids, and when the marriage fell apart, hell YES they took half the property. Is it always right? I don't know. But none of the women I know were trying to screw the guy (OK, so one was, but he was a real shit); they genuinely felt half the property belonged to them for their work in the marriage.

In terms of reproductive rights, women have almost a monopoly on this. With the ability to force a man to pay for a child, to forcing a man to give up the child to abortion (which it fine since it is her choice.). Now there is head way in the male contraceptives which I think will remedy this a lot and perhaps cause little bit of issue.

Absolutely 100% agreed. Men should be protesting in the streets and forcing research to provide them with better birth control. It's unconscionable that in this day and age men have so few options to control their reproduction- it mostly comes down to trusting women, and we've all seen how well that works out sometimes.

FYI- a shot of a gel into the vas deferens (which is 100% reversible) has been developed that so far has been 100% effective at preventing sperm release over a period of many years. It's not being marketed because men aren't very excited about it- I guess a one-time shot in the testes isn't that appealing (I'll post some links if anyone's interested- I believe it's called Vasogel).

So in short, we should be equalists and work together!

Of course. Working for equality doesn't mean working for domination- it means equality.