Pauline Letters to the church.

[Lemonvariable72]

If the case is such that Satan can deceive people into think he is god, then how can we know that the god of the bible isn't the evil one and Satan the true god?
Maybe the whole bible was written by authors that thought they were in touch with god but actually talking to Satan in order to complete the deception. Then it would follow that drich's method would be incorporated into the text and people would be taught to disregard anything that disagreed with those teachings in the bible because it's a deception trying to protect itself from the truth. Hence the bible calls for death of and/or detachment from nonbelievers, where as if it was true it would encourage dissent and challenges it too in order to prove its truth. However what we see in reality and the bible is very different, Paul teaches to distance yourself from non believers, moses teaches to murder them and burn their towns down, Jesus says they will burn in hell, and john backs him up in revelations.

[Esquilax]

If the case is such that Satan can deceive people into think he is god, then how can we know that the god of the isn't the evil and Satan the true god?

Ahem.

If I were the Prince of Darkness I would want to engulf the world in the darkness of ignorance; I would use this ignorance to cause divisiveness among men, and my success would give me control of every nation in the world.
First, I would invent religion. Not just one religion, but many religions, and I would delude the followers of each into believing that theirs was the “one true faith.” In so doing, I would promote an attitude among mankind that the followers of religions other than their own must do so only through ignorance or the primitiveness of their culture. And I would promote an attitude among them all that those who refuse to accept any religion are delusional, arrogant, or evil;

Really makes you think...

[Lemonvariable72]

If the case is such that Satan can deceive people into think he is god, then how can we know that the god of the isn't the evil and Satan the true god?

Ahem.

If I were the Prince of Darkness I would want to engulf the world in the darkness of ignorance; I would use this ignorance to cause divisiveness among men, and my success would give me control of every nation in the world.
First, I would invent religion. Not just one religion, but many religions, and I would delude the followers of each into believing that theirs was the “one true faith.” In so doing, I would promote an attitude among mankind that the followers of religions other than their own must do so only through ignorance or the primitiveness of their culture. And I would promote an attitude among them all that those who refuse to accept any religion are delusional, arrogant, or evil;

Really makes you think...

Yes, but following the same reasoning, you can figure why god made the made the universe and humanity. Play things.

[max-greece]

If the case is such that Satan can deceive people into think he is god, then how can we know that the god of the isn't the evil and Satan the true god?

Ahem.

If I were the Prince of Darkness I would want to engulf the world in the darkness of ignorance; I would use this ignorance to cause divisiveness among men, and my success would give me control of every nation in the world.
First, I would invent religion. Not just one religion, but many religions, and I would delude the followers of each into believing that theirs was the “one true faith.” In so doing, I would promote an attitude among mankind that the followers of religions other than their own must do so only through ignorance or the primitiveness of their culture. And I would promote an attitude among them all that those who refuse to accept any religion are delusional, arrogant, or evil;

Really makes you think...

Again and again Maltheism pops up as the most logical answer. I posted on this a month or so ago. It is the inevitable conclusion if you accept that there is a God.

[Drich]

The fact that their doctrine differs from the Doctrine established in the bible. Think about it before you appeal to the knee jerk atheist argument here.

And how do you know the reverse isn't true?

failed prophesy.

Joey made over 40 failed claims, and mo ham not to be beat made close to 100 failed prophecies if I remember correctly.

It only takes one.

[Dionysius]

The Pauline epistles were letters to the church from Paul telling them what to do on orders from god.

Weren't the church members praying already?

Most church member do not pray now. Remember there is a difference between petition and prayer. Paul in one of the letters you mention makes this distinction.

Wasn't god already talking to them?

God speaks to us through the Holy Spirit. But so does satan. The only way we know who is speaking for sure is to verify what is said scripturally. Paul's letters were the verification we needed to sift out un-Godly messages.

Why the need for a stranger's claims of god messages?

Because without a standard the 'stanger' you hear maybe the words of God. Meaning if you do not learn to hear or identify God's voice then the message you are accustom to hearing may not be of God.

One can only conclude that the prayers from the church people were going unanswered and they were just talking to themselves during prayer time.

Why must one conclude this?

What else fits?

See my answers above.

Just one humongous detail worth pointing out.

God speaks to us through the Holy Spirit. But so does satan.

The only way to know for sure who is speaking is to read the bible which was written by men who may or may not have been influenced by the Great and Holy Satan! satan... (skip) satan... (skip) satan... (skip) satan...

[Drich]

show me the scripture in which you speak and let's put in into it's proper context.

2 Thessalonians 2:11:

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The context is that people who don't love the truth will be further deceived by God in order that they shall never, EVER be saved: no redemption, no chance to make atonement for sins committed - God deludes them specifically to prevent any chance of salvation. This strikes me as pretty odd behavior for a God who wants ALL people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, in case you were wondering).

But I digress. Given the above, how can you determine if your religious beliefs are what God actually wants you to believe, or if God is making you believe a lie for the express purpose of damning you?

Boru

ah, no. Verse 11 is tied to the time frame established in verse 1. Verse one is speaking of the last days of the apoclapse. Which means in the last days (once the events of the end of the world have been triggered) those who wanted nothing to do God before the end times, will not accept the signs of the end times because of this great deception that has been sent.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

I gave an example of what this deception might look like here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-11941.html

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If the case is such that Satan can deceive people into think he is god, then how can we know that the god of the bible isn't the evil one and Satan the true god?

In Christianity God and satan are not equals. Satan is a reluctant servant of God. He only does what He is allowed to do (see the book of Job.) If Satan is the almighty, then he is getting his teeth kicked in by his nemsis. Which makes him less than 'almighty.' which means he can not be God.

Maybe the whole bible was written by authors that thought they were in touch with god but actually talking to Satan in order to complete the deception.

Kinda like the koran and the book of Moromon? So ask yourself what seperated the bible for the book of mormon? Answer? Prophesy. Satan's books are filled with flat out wrong and unanswered prophesy. Satan is not Onmipotent therefore does not know what is comming.

Then it would follow that drich's method would be incorporated into the text and people would be taught to disregard anything that disagreed with those teachings in the bible because it's a deception trying to protect itself from the truth.

Then what standard would one use as the word of God?

Hence the bible calls for death of and/or detachment from nonbelievers, where as if it was true it would encourage dissent and challenges it too in order to prove its truth.

Where does it call for this?

However what we see in reality and the bible is very different, Paul teaches to distance yourself from non believers, moses teaches to murder them and burn their towns down, Jesus says they will burn in hell, and john backs him up in revelations.

again where?

[Minimalist]

Your little boy toy jesus didn't do so well in the prophecy department either, Drippy.

[Lemonvariable72]

If the case is such that Satan can deceive people into think he is god, then how can we know that the god of the bible isn't the evil one and Satan the true god?

In Christianity God and satan are not equals. Satan is a reluctant servant of God. He only does what He is allowed to do (see the book of Job.) If Satan is the almighty, then he is getting his teeth kicked in by his nemsis. Which makes him less than 'almighty.' which means he can not be God.

So satan decieves people intentionally on god behalf, with a end result of those people being sent to hell for rejecting his word because satan decieved them. Yet god is not evil?

Maybe the whole bible was written by authors that thought they were in touch with god but actually talking to Satan in order to complete the deception.

Kinda like the koran and the book of Moromon? So ask yourself what seperated the bible for the book of mormon? Answer? Prophesy. Satan's books are filled with flat out wrong and unanswered prophesy. Satan is not Onmipotent therefore does not know what is comming.

Like the bible?
Here are a few

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Destruction of egypt
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee. And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that I am the LORD: because he hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it. Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.[5]

This passage is one of the most erroneous in the entire Bible. Egypt has never been a desolate waste, there has never been a time when people have not walked through it, there has never been a period of forty years when Egypt was uninhabited, and it has never been surrounded by other desolate countries.[6]

In Ezekiel 30:10-11 he further predicts that Nebuchadnezzar will destroy Egypt:

This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army—the most ruthless of nations— will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (NIV)

However, Nebuchadnezzar was defeated in his only attempt to invade Egypt.[7]

Nile will dry up
Yep, still there

Ezekiel 30:12 continues with a prediction that the Nile River will run dry.

I will dry up the streams of the Nile and sell the land to evil men; by the hand of foreigners I will lay waste the land and everything in it. I the LORD have spoken. (NIV)

There is no evidence that this has happened in recorded history.

Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]

In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists. [4]
Original article here http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies

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Then it would follow that drich's method would be incorporated into the text and people would be taught to disregard anything that disagreed with those teachings in the bible because it's a deception trying to protect itself from the truth.

Then what standard would one use as the word of God?
The samething they use now

Hence the bible calls for death of and/or detachment from nonbelievers, where as if it was true it would encourage dissent and challenges it too in order to prove its truth.

Where does it call for this?

2 Corinthians 6:14-17

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord.

Acts 13:10 ESV

And said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?

If a person can pervert the ways of the lord how much the devil who is far more powerful then us?

However what we see in reality and the bible is very different, Paul teaches to distance yourself from non believers, moses teaches to murder them and burn their towns down, Jesus says they will burn in hell, and john backs him up in revelations.

again where?

Deut.
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

13:12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

Matthew 5:22 ESV

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 23:33 ESV

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Revelation 20:13-15 ESV

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Need more? Because I think the bible is clear here, no matter what apologetic crap you come up with.

[freedomfromforum]

Satan is a reluctant servant of God. He only does what He is allowed to do...

(partial quote)

If god allows satan to be a dick, then by proxy, god is a dick.