anyone else here not pro life for the sake of being pro life?

[Psykhronic]

I think it's very selfish to expect others to stay alive just because you care about them. This is not a straightforward issue, of course, so I'm not saying "Everyone go kill yourselves if you feel like it!" but I think the selfish pendulum swings both ways.

[Mystical]

Facts About Mental Illness and Suicide
http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_suicide.php


The great majorityof people who experience a mental illnessdonot die by suicide. However, of thosewho die from suicide, more than 90 percent have a diagnosable mental disorder.

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I think it's very selfish to expect others to stay alive just because you care about them. This is not a straightforward issue, of course, so I'm not saying "Everyone go kill yourselves if you feel like it!" but I think the selfish pendulum swings both ways.

Why is it selfish for someone who isn't you, to want you to live? I have talked total strangers out of killing themselves, and I assure you: its not because I am being selfish in wanting them to live. I honestly f
don't care either way unless I love you or you're a friend. I just think it's the decent thing to do, tohelp someone who have lost the ability to help themselves. Do you consider death preferable over living? I don't, up to a point (like terminal illness or lifelong physical suffering).

[Anomalocaris]

I think it's very selfish to expect others to stay alive just because you care about them. This is not a straightforward issue, of course, so I'm not saying "Everyone go kill yourselves if you feel like it!" but I think the selfish pendulum swings both ways.

I think the expectation that those who have nothing of enough value to offset their pain should nonetheless be expected to go on suffering to ease your days, as if their lives were not their own but your property to command for your own comfort, is greedy selfishness of a whole different order than doing as you please with what is mostly your own.

[Psykhronic]

I think it's very selfish to expect others to stay alive just because you care about them. This is not a straightforward issue, of course, so I'm not saying "Everyone go kill yourselves if you feel like it!" but I think the selfish pendulum swings both ways.

Why is it selfish for someone who isn't you, to want you to live? I have talked total strangers out of killing themselves, and I assure you: its not because I am being selfish in wanting them to live. I honestly f
don't care either way unless I love you or you're a friend. I just think it's the decent thing to do, tohelp someone who have lost the ability to help themselves. Do you consider death preferable over living? I don't, up to a point (like terminal illness or lifelong physical suffering).

I'm not talking so much about strangers and people with treatable mental illness and I'm not saying don't talk people out of suicide - once gone, there is no coming back, so it's not something to be done lightly. But if I want to die due to extreme suffering, like a severe terminal illness, it's selfish that other people would want their desire of my life to triumph over my own desire.

I think death is preferable to certain types of living. I am mentally ill and almost died from suicide. I'm glad to be here alive because it turns out there are meds that actually help me significantly - I hadnt given anti-psychotics a chance up to that point. In that case, someone saying "at least live long enough to try some pill combos and see if it sorts shit out" is reasonable.

The thing is - if there's nothing that can be done to alleviate someone's suffering then I find it selfish to keep them here.

And chuck - I don't know what you just said, run on sentences confuse the shit out of me.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

So you're saying you'd rather die than let someone you love see you indisposed. And that your death would be timely because you chose the time and place (despite others feelings on the matter).

To me that's just selfishness. Why do you see it otherwise?

It depends entirely on ones definition of 'selfish'. As Psykhronic states, the angle of selfish runs both ways. Wanting someone to live because of nothing more than your want is no different to the contrary of wanting to die because you want to. This is not a ubiquitous assessment of all cases, but in my example I think it is.

People should be able to respect the decision of the person whose death it is. They may disagree, and they can voice their disagreement naturally. I would welcome their input. But I would not want to be a shell of me, as is the ultimate end of diseases such as dementia.

IMHO, it's much better to chose one's time if given the option-/opportunity. Clearly our preferences differ, but I don't ever want to be a shell, and I think people who can love a shell of someone are simply loving the memories of the person they had before they became that shell. The difference therefore is negligible. The memories always remain.

As chuck says, the want for someone you love to live for nothing more than a desire that they should be with you as long as they can is, indeed, very selfish. One almost becomes property in that perspective. I think choosing one's time of death is much more preferable for all parties, even if those closest to you don't realise it at the time. You control the cards and how they fall, and so you can be the true master of your life and indeed your death.

[Psykhronic]

So you're saying you'd rather die than let someone you love see you indisposed. And that your death would be timely because you chose the time and place (despite others feelings on the matter).

To me that's just selfishness. Why do you see it otherwise?

As chuck says, the want for someone you love to live for nothing more than a desire that they should be with you as long as they can is, indeed, very selfish. One almost becomes property in that perspective. I think choosing one's time of death is much more preferable for all parties, even if those closest to you don't realise it at the time. You control the cards and how they fall, and so you can be the true master of your life and indeed your death.

So THAT'S what chuck was saying? I thought so but was not sure. And I agree.

[Mystical]

I'm not talking so much about strangers and people with treatable mental illness and I'm not saying don't talk people out of suicide - once gone, there is no coming back, so it's not something to be done lightly. But if I want to die due to extreme suffering, like a severe terminal illness, it's selfish that other people would want their desire of my life to triumph over my own desire.

agreed.

I think death is preferable to certain types of living. I am mentally ill and almost died from suicide. I'm glad to be here alive because it turns out there are meds that actually help me significantly - I hadnt given anti-psychotics a chance up to that point. In that case, someone saying "at least live long enough to try some pill combos and see if it sorts shit out" is reasonable.

also agreed

The thing is - if there's nothing that can be done to alleviate someone's suffering then I find it selfish to keep them here.

what's your definition of suffering?

And chuck - I don't know what you just said, run on sentences confuse the shit out of me.

thricely agreed

[Psykhronic]

Suffering is rather subjective. When a person is or is becoming physically or mentally incapacitated, in a way that sucks out a person's will to live BUT also has no hope of recovery - I think is a decent starting definition for the kind of suffering that justifies euthanasia or suicide. Feel free to pick it apart, Miss

[Mystical]

It depends entirely on ones definition of 'selfish'. As Psykhronic states, the angle of selfish runs both ways. Wanting someone to live because of nothing more than your want is no different to the contrary of wanting to die because you want to.

agreed. but who says thats their reasoning for wanting you alive if you areng suffering?

This is not a ubiquitous assessment of all cases, but in my example I think it is.

Just because you don't know who you are doesn't mean you can't get enjoyment from being alive.

People should be able to respect the decision of the person whose death it is. They may disagree, and they can voice their disagreement naturally. I would welcome their input.

I'd agree with you up to the point that you say not living is preferable to living life with dimentia.
Say you had that disease where your skin fell off. Or you had to live life in constant severe untreatable pain, then I'd agree with you.

But I would not want to be a shell of me, as is the ultimate end of diseases such as dementia.

Pudding still tastes yummy. Sunshine still feels good. A hot bath is still relaxing. A kiss on the forehead still releases seratonin. Even if you don't know who you are there are still worthwhile experiences to be had.

IMHO, it's much better to chose one's time if given the option-/opportunity. [/uote]
We always have the option and opportunity though. Just because I can does that mean I should? Wont I be missing out on life, whatever life that may be?

[quote]
Clearly our preferences differ, but I don't ever want to be a shell, and I think people who can love a shell of someone are simply loving the memories of the person they had before they became that shell. The difference therefore is negligible. The memories always remain.

Why are memories more important than your life?

As chuck says, the want for someone you love to live for nothing more than a desire that they should be with you as long as they can is, indeed, very selfish.

agreed, if that was their reasoning.

One almost becomes property in that perspective. I think choosing one's time of death is much more preferable for all parties, even if those closest to you don't realise it at the time. You control the cards and how they fall, and so you can be the true master of your life and indeed your death.

Why do you think death is preferable to life if you have dimentia?

[freedomfromforum]

Last night I proposed a hypothesis to my wife. I asked her if I were given six weeks to live, and with each passing day of those I had remaining, my pain increased and my presence of mind decreased exponentially, if she would give me an injection that would cause instant painless death for me, or if she would want to keep me around. She said that she would feel selfish, and want to keep me for as long as she could, though she was conflicted because of my increasing pain. She said that in any event it would be wrong to give me an injection that would kill me even though my mortality was eminent. I then changed the rules a little, just to see where she would break. I told her that the injection, rather than kill me instantaneously, would afford me three weeks of a healthy life full of strength and vitality, as opposed to daily decay, and that at the end of three weeks I would die painlessly. She quickly chose the preferable option of three healthy weeks vs. six deteriorating weeks. I laughed and said "I knew I could get you to kill me."

We all have an eminent date with our own mortality. Six weeks, or six decades, it makes no difference, we are all decaying. I see nothing wrong with a person making a choice for themselves with respect to how they live their life or how they die their death. My wife and I were exposed to this scenario last night, and we found a loving, warm compromise to a very dark situation. I am not a fan of suicide, but really, who the hell am I to tell someone else what to do with their life?