Atheists dealing with their religious families

[Clueless Morgan]

I'm starting a new thread since we're derailing The Bible thread that's talking about the show on History Channel...

Here's a link to the other thread:
The Bible
The derailment began with my post on the second page; here are some of the pertinent posts:

I decided to reread Forged by Bart Ehrman since watching Bible Secrets Revealed and an interesting thing happened.

I was reading it while out to breakfast with my mom and a friend we know from the coffee shop and this friend asked me what I was reading so I told her it was a book about the forgeries that are in the bible and my mom started asking me questions about it and it made me realize something:

I don't think she remembers that I'm an atheist.

I guess telling her daughter she was going to hell didn't make an impression on her. It sure made one on me.

Welcome to the club. My father said I was hell bound and didn't hardly blink an eye. I guess he believe that his heavenly lobotomy will take care of any sadness he might feel for his son throughout eternity.

Welcome to the club. My father said I was hell bound and didn't hardly blink an eye. I guess he believe that his heavenly lobotomy will take care of any sadness he might feel for his son throughout eternity.

Parents can be douches, not realizing the damage they are causing their children, because they are incapable of seeing past themselves and the silly beliefs to which they adhere.

My relationship with my father is nonexistent. I realized years ago that it was not worth salvaging what he clearly destroyed during my childhood.

My mom knows I don't go to church but doesn't say anything to me about it. I don't think she knows I'm an atheist, but as long as she doesn't ask I won't tell.

And the bit I'm replying to:

Perhaps one day we'll have a discussion about it and I'll learn whether she feels the same way Cinjin's father feels. Then I might have to do some reevaluating.

Do you WANT to have that conversation? I can't imagine how I'd feel in your position, knowing about the experiences of folks like Cinjin.

I've given this a little thought since first reading this post (and I'm doing the thinking on a few glasses of wine, so...) and I can't imagine ever wanting or trying to have this conversation. Of course, my mother gets angry if people ask her if they can pray for her. Is this something people need to do with their parents? I feel crappy asking, but I want to know, and this is outside of my parental experience. If it makes anyone feel better, even though my father is a BIG atheist, I don't have a relationship with him because of his narcissism. So atheist parents are not the be-all and end-all.

I'd put it this way: If the conversation comes up I'm willing to have it. But with the dynamics of my family and the fact that topics like this are almost never discussed I find it unlikely that this conversation will happen (a conversation specifically about belief) unless I force it to come up, which in and of itself is unlikely as I'm not the type to bring things up unnecessary topics of discussion if I know will be upsetting to people I love.

[Doubting Thomas]

The trouble is that ALL my family is Catholic except for one nephew who's also an atheist. I just don't want to deal with the shit from well-meaning but annoying family members trying to get me to go back to church again.

[thesummerqueen]

The trouble is that ALL my family is Catholic except for one nephew who's also an atheist. I just don't want to deal with the shit from well-meaning but annoying family members trying to get me to go back to church again.

How is he doing, by the way? Isn't he the chap who was having so many problems and was the reason you joined this place?

[Doubting Thomas]

Yep, he's back home and things are a lot better between him and his parents. He's still going to school and working part time at a convenience store.

[The Reality Salesman01]

I've had this conversation with my mom several times. She's a big-time Christian in the heart of bible-thumping Texas.

The problem with having this conversation with my mom, and others like her, is that they don't understand what critical thinking is. They don't recognize invalid logic. They don't recognize circular reasoning. They are blinded by confirmation bias, and have zero clue what the hell I'm even talking about or why my objections are valid. They have literally had God-blinders on their entire lives, and I don't know how many other tacts I could try that would have more effective results.

There are different kinds of Christians that have more potential for being made aware of their faith being a hoax than others. Some people derive so much comfort from their belief, and have done so for so long, that the very idea of questioning it brings them discomfort and fear. They're minds have safe-guarded their belief and it is not even on the table to being challenged (look at some of our resident theists here). They suffer from a state of doxastic closure (a reluctance to change a belief) that prevents them from honestly analyzing their belief. There's no telling what it will take to get someone to reach a level of doxastic openness with regards to their faith, but they're less likely to acheive that if they don't have, understand, or value the tools of logic at all. It's a sad state that perpetuates bad ideas.

This has been my experience anyway, and it doesn't stop me from defending my position. If my mom and other Christians feel comfortable spewing unsolicited religious nonsense, then I make no apologies for the response they get in return. This shit is never gonna end if they continue to get a pass. This idea that religious beliefs should get a pass has to be denied on all fronts. Even when it comes to family, and yes, I know it's harder. There are genuinely evil things that are masquerading under the cover of these seemingly harmless hopes. I'm over it. It took me a long time to decode my thoughts toward this subject, so I certainly understand why others remain cautious. But honestly, it just feels like the right thing to do. Be who you are, and know that there's nothing wrong with that!

[Clueless Morgan]

I've had this conversation with my mom several times. She's a big-time Christian in the heart of bible-thumping Texas.

The problem with having this conversation with my mom, and others like her, is that they don't understand what critical thinking is. They don't recognize invalid logic. They don't recognize circular reasoning. They are blinded by confirmation bias, and have zero clue what the hell I'm even talking about or why my objections are valid. They have literally had God-blinders on their entire lives, and I don't know how many other tacts I could try that would have more effective results.

I'm reading A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian right now and it has some interesting ideas about how to approach conversations with theists - he is specifically aiming at deconverting people or disabusing them of their faith (whether that's your thing or not), but I think it is valuable in understanding the process of getting someone to recognize their own cognitive dissonance.

I'm finding it interesting at least.

There are different kinds of Christians that have more potential for being made aware of their faith being a hoax than others. Some people derive so much comfort from their belief, and have done so for so long, that the very idea of questioning it brings them discomfort and fear. They're minds have safe-guarded their belief and it is not even on the table to being challenged (look at some of our resident theists here). They suffer from a state of doxastic closure (a reluctance to change a belief) that prevents them from honestly analyzing their belief. There's no telling what it will take to get someone to reach a level of doxastic openness with regards to their faith, but they're less likely to acheive that if they don't have, understand, or value the tools of logic at all. It's a sad state that perpetuates bad ideas.

I think, and I hope, that my mom is in this category - she knows that a ton of stuff about Christianity is bullshit, she just doesn't care. My dad's another story; if my mom doesn't care, my dad isn't even in the same galaxy as not caring; he's completely ambivalent. I'm not entirely sure he's ever given an ounce of thought about religion, but he's sure steeped in god-believing culture: he's a diehard NASCAR fan, listens almost primarily to country music, is almost the most obnoxious Republican I know (the first most obnoxious is a fundy christian lady I see once a month at a movie night I go to*), and seems to take pride in the idea that he's a Northwestern Redneck. My mom could probably be reasoned with, even though she's the one who grew up going to church and who comes from "the religious side of the family"; my dad, as far as I know, never went to church and was probably never indoctrinated into a formal god belief, but I know for a fact there's no reasoning with him.

This has been my experience anyway, and it doesn't stop me from defending my position. If my mom and other Christians feel comfortable spewing unsolicited religious nonsense, then I make no apologies for the response they get in return. This shit is never gonna end if they continue to get a pass. This idea that religious beliefs should get a pass has to be denied on all fronts. Even when it comes to family, and yes, I know it's harder. There are genuinely evil things that are masquerading under the cover of these seemingly harmless hopes. I'm over it. It took me a long time to decode my thoughts toward this subject, so I certainly understand why others remain cautious. But honestly, it just feels like the right thing to do. Be who you are, and know that there's nothing wrong with that!

I agree. I really should speak up more.

* My dearest ambition is to one day spring on her that I'm an atheist but that would be the end of movie night and I enjoy going. The only reason I don't say anything now is that I know exactly the response she'll have: "Well, have you read the bible??" and then it'll turn into a big "You just don't understand the bible!" argument and I'm not well versed enough with the bible to even have that conversation. There are several other very devout Christian ladies who occassionally come to movie night and the other reason I don't say anything is because I have absolutely zero desire to become anyone's project, "Let's convert the atheist!!" - also, I have no desire to be ganged up on.

[The Reality Salesman01]

I'm reading A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian right now and it has some interesting ideas about how to approach conversations with theists - he is specifically aiming at deconverting people or disabusing them of their faith (whether that's your thing or not), but I think it is valuable in understanding the process of getting someone to recognize their own cognitive dissonance.

That's a great book! Peter is one of my facebook friends! Lol...A while back, when I was trying to sort out my thoughts, I was surfing YouTube, and came accross one of his lectures pertaining to the importance of using reliable processes to discern truths. I e-mailed him something very similar to what you wrote in your OP. To my surprise, moments later, he responded. He's a really cool dude, and has some pretty helpful advice. That's actually how I heard about his book. From HIM! I think he was under the impression that I had some idea that he had been writing it. I had no clue, and he said that this very topic (the one we're discussing now) was something that bothered him as well, and that's what motivated him to write it. So, I pre-ordered it. It's pretty good. I particularly like the "kill all left handed people" thought experiment. I think you'll sort thruogh this stuff, and as far as The Bible goes, read it. You may be surprised how entertained you'll be when you discover how absurd a book it really is. The things you will read in there will blow your mind, it's a wonder how anybody could ever get anesthetized by it.

I have a Bible that my girlfriend gave me (it's pink), I wrote "A Guide to Atheism on the cover and spine of it in sharpie marker. I go through it from time to time and highlight all of the insane things I find as I go. I have post-its that mark particularly useful information that comes up in debates, and am actually beginning to memorize, in sequence, the order of the books within it.

It's crazy that learning non-sense is necessary in order to dispute non-sense, but I find it to be a particularly enjoyable hobby of mine. When I was a young impressionable child, nobody had any reservations about planting crazy ideas in my head. They had the power and the influence over my thoughts. Luckily, I got out. I feel no remorse about confronting the same people that continue to do that to other children, and dismantling their nonsense with reason in a way I was not equipped to do when I was a child. It's a paradigm shift, and it's an example of something going around and then coming right back around on them. In many ways, their understanding of Biblical fantasy is no different than what mine was as a child. The difference now, is that while they've just been listening to what their being told is true, I've been learning how to figure it out on my own. As you can see by looking around at some of the threads on this forum, that puts us at a great advantage!

[Clueless Morgan]

I'm reading A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian right now and it has some interesting ideas about how to approach conversations with theists - he is specifically aiming at deconverting people or disabusing them of their faith (whether that's your thing or not), but I think it is valuable in understanding the process of getting someone to recognize their own cognitive dissonance.

That's a great book! Peter is one of my facebook friends!

I literally JUST missed his debut of this book at a local bookstore where he was doing a reading (he and I both live in Portland) and I was super pissed when I realized I had missed it!

I'm just starting chapter 7 "Anti-Apologetics 101" and am enjoying it tremendously so far. I think it's as valuable a book to evaluate your own reasoning processes as it could be to deconvert people. Whether it's successful as a manual for deconverting people, only time will tell.

as far as The Bible goes, read it. You may be surprised how entertained you'll be when you discover how absurd a book it really is. The things you will read in there will blow your mind, it's a wonder how anybody could ever get anesthetized by it.

I have read it, granted I was like 17 when I read it and I don't recall very much of it other than the "WTF?" reactions I had. My concern about having The Bible Conversation with a theist, especially the theist I'm referring to (her name is Stephanie), would be that I would have nothing to say when she says, "Just read Matthew 5:17: For when Jesus rises again, all will eat grilled cheese sandwiches!" or whatever.

I've read several books about the bible (thanks again to Min for the one he sent me!) but I don't have good enough instant recall under pressure to come up with information to refute anything a bible-believer would say to me.

In that respect, having my mom know that I'm reading Forged is probably a good thing in a sense - she might be interested in reading it and she has better recall than I do (and goes to the same movie night where we met Stephanie). The draw back to that is that if Stephanie is able to refute anything in even a remotely plausible way I have a feeling my mom would buy her explanation hook, line and sinker.

I have a Bible that my girlfriend gave me (it's pink), I wrote "A Guide to Atheism on the cover and spine of it in sharpie marker. I go through it from time to time and highlight all of the insane things I find as I go. I have post-its that mark particularly useful information that comes up in debates, and am actually beginning to memorize, in sequence, the order of the books within it.

I've marked up some of the sicker passages in the bible I have just for easy reference but I don't particularly find it necessary that I need to memorize the names of the books in order. To each their own in that regard - maybe you could look up a mneumoic to help you remember? There has got to be one out there somewhere...

[Owlix]

I just don't see a whole lot of my extended family. My immediate family knows I'm atheist, even if they don't necessarily know what it means. The question doesn't really come up.

Should it ever, and they try to gang up on me, I'll go batshit. No mercy.

[xpastor]

I'm sort of opposite to the rest of you guys in terms of generational differences.

I am 72, and I have two sons in their 40s. The younger son is an atheist like me. The older son (who was a totally wild kid when I was in the ministry) attends a fundamentalist church and reads these ridiculous Left Behind novels about the Rapture. I think his wife is even more so.

However, I regard them as skin-deep fundamentalists, which are the best kind. They probably suspect that the old man hasn't been to church in decades, but they don't raise the issue. They are good parents with their kids, and not really morally rigid. I'm secretly amused that The Big Bang Theory is one of their favorite TV shows; you would think most fundies would disapprove of all the pre-marital sex.

Anyway, I've just decided not to rock the boat. They don't bug me, so I won't bug them. I would be afraid that if I made an all-out effort to deconvert them, I might find myself cut off from the grandchildren.