Evidence God Exists

[Welsh cake]

It's laughable that you present beluga whales as proof of animals with sapient intelligence. Especially when they're performing tricks taught by humans, imprisoned in tanks created by humans. NO ONE in the fields of science, biology, or marine biology consider beluga whales, or any other animals, to have sapient intelligence. Humans are the only species with sapient intelligence. You're dancing circles around the real issue, perhaps in fear that you won't be able to answer the real question: Why are humans the only species with sapient intelligence?

The entire human race are all suddenly intelligent now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdcMWvWLVPY

Get real.

[Autumnlicious]

It's laughable that you present beluga whales as proof of animals with sapient intelligence. Especially when they're performing tricks taught by humans, imprisoned in tanks created by humans. NO ONE in the fields of science, biology, or marine biology consider beluga whales, or any other animals, to have sapient intelligence. Humans are the only species with sapient intelligence. You're dancing circles around the real issue, perhaps in fear that you won't be able to answer the real question: Why are humans the only species with sapient intelligence?

The entire human race are all suddenly intelligent now?

Get real.

No - you get real. You just took an accurate statement and propped up a strawman. He said the human race is the only (current) living species to possess sapient intelligence. That doesn't mean the entire race is intelligent - it means that the across the entire gradient of the human species, there is a general range of human sapience that is noticeably above other animal species.

Of course, I don't agree with AngelTh's premise, as human intelligence is an outgrowth of complex primate social groupings with evolutionary pressure to adapt to different environments quickly.

[Zen Badger]

This thread seems to have devolved into an 'are humans intelligent' thread which is fine.
Except it proves nothing either way about the existance or not of yahweh or whatever your god of choice is called.

Are humans intelligent yes.
is it qualitively different from other animal intelligence no.

Almost all human traits are represnted to a degree in other animals. Some apes teach their young how to do things.
Other animals, even some birds make tools and alter their living conditions with structures. Prarie dogs and other animals have crude languages.

Its true that a Chimpanzee has never directed a light opera but this is because of a difference in scale of intelligence not type.

I've never once denied that animals have intelligence. But any smart trait by any animal pales in comparison to human sapient intelligent. I'm so sick of repeating this.

Yes, this has devolved into an 'are humans intelligent' thread because people are afraid to tackle the real subject. It's easier to live in denial. It's harder to answer the real question: Why are humans the only species with sapient intelligence?

The normal christian response to any question they can't answer, "oh god did it"

Intellectual laziness at its contemptable best.

[AngelThMan]

Neanderthals are extinct. Further proof we are the only species meant to have sapient intelligence!

Funny how they got left out of the bible then.

Not every creature is in the bible.

I've still to see how humanities intelligence...is proof of god.

If other animals had it, then it wouldn't be evidence of anything but evolution. But it's important to acknowledge that we have something that no other species have, and that there are millions of species on this planet. To fully have a grasp of my point, one must also appreciate the grandness that is sapient intelligent. With it we have gained control of the world. It is my theory that these two elements, if observed thoroughly and in unison, point to a deity.

The normal christian response to any question they can't answer, "oh god did it"

Intellectual laziness at its contemptable best.

No, I examined the evidence, and devised a theory from it. At the end of the day, that's all that scientists do.

[Zen Badger]

Neanderthals are extinct. Further proof we are the only species meant to have sapient intelligence!

Funny how they got left out of the bible then.

Not every creature is in the bible.

I've still to see how humanities intelligence...is proof of god.

If other animals had it, then it wouldn't be evidence of anything but evolution. But it's important to acknowledge that we have something that no other species have, and that there are millions of species on this planet. To fully have a grasp of my point, one must also appreciate the grandness that is sapient intelligent. With it we have gained control of the world. It is my theory that these two elements, if observed thoroughly and in unison, point to a deity.

The normal christian response to any question they can't answer, "oh god did it"

Intellectual laziness at its contemptable best.

No, I examined the evidence, and devised a theory from it. At the end of the day, that's all that scientists do.

No, scientists examine the evidence and then come up with a theory to explain it.

They don't start with a theory and then bend the facts to fit.

[Welsh cake]

Welsh cake that is very entertaining and they do show a degree of intelligence but to put them on the same level as humans is hardly a sapient decision. Take a look at your thought process,on the African plains a lion hunts its prey this makes the lion self aware because it knows if it does not eat it dies. The prey flees this makes the prey self aware because it knows if it does not flee it will die. Both are aware of their existance but that does not put them on the human level.

I train rottweilers and they can do more tricks than that and they obey commands in three different languages. I've seen herding dogs respond to many different whistled commands. From personal experiance I've watched rotties study people for the sole purpose of training them so they could do what pleased them not what would please the owners and even this does not raise them to the human level. Because a person does not understand the nature of dogs and allow themselves to be manipulated by dogs does not raise the intelligence of the dog it only shows the lack of understanding on a owners part. Oh by the way my latest rottie she loves to blow bubbles in her water pan and she gets just as excited as the whales do.

Agreed, but this is an entirely separate issue on what levels or degrees of intelligence there are, or what constitutes as sapience and this wasn't AngelThMan's original premise, yes he's changed his position many times I know, but his original claim is arguing mankind is the only species with sapient intelligent, and not only that but that obviously counts as evidence there's a Jewish tribal-God out there. I fail to see the connection.

How we go about 'defining' intelligence is straightforward but measuring this biological phenomenon is far from a cakewalk. I posted that Youtube video of the marine animals to demonstrate that they blow bubbles for pleasure; we can observe they are incredibly social animals who love to perform stunts and communicate, though I find their apparent lives in captivity somewhat depressing.

That's not the only example, take the humble sheep for example; they use their own logic whenever running in a straight line from an approaching threat and not to the side. Now a sheep doesn't understand that a car can't climb grassy banks, and ancestrally speaking they've have had predators in the form of wolves and big cats, who if spotting the sheep turning aside a few yards away will intercept its prey.

These predators kill their prey by grabbing their throats and so herbivores will do their best to keep any potential threat behind it. People underrate sheep as stupid, should actually observe them on the field, they don't just run straight; they try to dive to the side at the last minute. They adopt the strategy the hare is the master of, by causing the predator to overshoot or even tumble over heels. The sheep recognises that if it can't beat the car on the flat road it stands no chance whatsoever up banks and down ditches and will always attempt to outrun the vehicle. We can demonstrate this by slowing the vehicle down behind them, the animal will use this to their advantage and dive to the side thinking the predator can no longer pursue over obstacles.

Humans tend to dive to the side straight away with oncoming vehicles though this makes you wonder why more people are hit everyday by traffic than sheep. Hmmm...

I wonder how they taught the whales to make ring bubbles on command. They either showed the dolphins how and rewarded them when they mimicked the behavior or most whales know how to make ring bubbles and they rewarded them every time they made ring bubbles so they would make them more often eventually attaching a command to the behavior...

I don't know, I'll need to carry out some more research, its possible bubble blowing was an ability of theirs observed in the wild. I did read up dolphins can 'tail-walk', basically it's where they keep the upper part of their bodies out of the water, and propel along the surface with powerful tail movements. Yes, this usually arises from human training, but in 80s, a female from the wild was kept at a local dolphinarium for three weeks and picked up the technique. It would suggest that she copied the "tail-walking" behaviour from other dolphins kept there. After this two other wild adult female dolphins copied it from her so apparently they do teach and learn from each other.

It's laughable that you present beluga whales as proof of animals with sapient intelligence. Especially when they're performing tricks taught by humans, imprisoned in tanks created by humans. NO ONE in the fields of science, biology, or marine biology consider beluga whales, or any other animals, to have sapient intelligence. Humans are the only species with sapient intelligence. You're dancing circles around the real issue, perhaps in fear that you won't be able to answer the real question: Why are humans the only species with sapient intelligence?

Well tavarish has already adequately responded to each point you've made anything I say now is redundant, but if you're arguing that marine mammals are merely copying tricks we teach them then dolphins playing "ball" with jellyfish in the wild are not evidence of sapience?

I'm curious. Just what is your measure of mammalian intelligence? If you theorize it correlates to the number of nerve cells in the brain, or cortex, then a human would have roughly 11.5 billion compared to a Bottlenose dolphin which has an average of about 5.8 billion cortical neurons, you may have a point, if that's your theory but this doesn't support that man is the only sapient species there is, its refuted if anything because evolution is not a ladder therefore there is no superior life-form. But I digress you haven't presented one qualifier of 'intelligence' yet and I'm still waiting for one, you just keep asserting that man is the only intelligent species on the planet and this proves a deity exists over and over again.

No - you get real. You just took an accurate statement and propped up a strawman. He said the human race is the only (current) living species to possess sapient intelligence. That doesn't mean the entire race is intelligent - it means that the across the entire gradient of the human species, there is a general range of human sapience that is noticeably above other animal species.

Needless to say I lost the bet with my friend that I could make coherent responses whilst intoxicated. This wouldn't be the first time. ^^

How all this is evidence a god exists (remember the thread topic?) is still beyond me.

[Shinylight]

Sapient means wise, I would hardly describe our species as wise

[Disinter]

Sapient means wise, I would hardly describe our species as wise

Whoever came up with homosapien was obviously smoking crack. Could have a been a methhead as well.

[downbeatplumb]

Has Angelthman demonstrated that Sapience is diffferent from intelligence?
If so I appear to have missed it.

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

I understand AngelThMan's concern: why are we the only species with language and opposable thumbs? scratch the opposable thumbs part. I think that we are the only species with language is a coincidence. Evolutionary biology doesn't say that extremely valuable traits should be found in more than one species on a habitable planet. The question is like asking 'Why don't horses have horns?' answer: http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/jan...ities.html

Q. All animals I know having hoofs also have horns or antlers. Horses have hoofs. Why don't they have horns or antlers?

Richard Huettl
Mendota Heights

A. The answer has to do with how closely they are related. Hoofed mammals with horns or antlers with bone cores—deer, giraffes, sheep, and other ruminants—belong to the order Artiodactyla, or even-toed ungulates. Ruminants have an even number of toes (two or four) on each foot. Horses belong to a different order—Perissodactyla, or odd-toed ungulates. These mammals have an odd number of toes (one or three) on each foot and do not have horns or antlers with bone cores. Other families of Perissodactyla include rhinoceroses (which have hornlike protuberances on their snouts, not bony-cored horns) and tapirs.

You mentioned something interesting earlier...

AngelThMan Wrote:
Neanderthals are extinct. Further proof we are the only species meant to have sapient intelligence!

IMO, this is bizarre reasoning... I mean if the god you believe in exists (and it's the Christian god, and I'm guessing you're a theistic evolutionist because you don't deny that neanderthals existed), why would your god create (or allow to come into existence via selective pressures and random mutation) a species that he knew would go extinct? If we were 'meant' by a god to be the only species with 'sapient intelligence', why create neanderthals at all?