"If you're not a Feminist, you're a Sexist"

[Bad Wolf]

This is some of the hypocrisy I hate about some feminists:

[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vLpzzaeNaKI[/youtube]

[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i19nwUwSLAM[/youtube]

[*Deidre*]

I think there's a middle ground if you don't believe women are discriminated against more than men.

So there's three possibilities:
- feminism
- sexism
- ignorance

Yes, because many women are just pretending that they haven't been paid the same (as much) as men throughout the history of corporate America, etc.

If you choose to not believe it, that doesn't erase the fact that it went on, and still goes on. Although, great progress is being made on this front.

[MJ the Skeptical]

I was really surprised to hear atheist youtuber AronRa say this in one of his videos. Personally, I take major issue with his assertion and blanket statement of all those who disagree with his definition of Feminism. I don't consider myself sexist or feminist first of all, so I think that refutes him. I would consider myself Egalitarian (or Equalitarian) and I personally see that as the best label for someone interested in the equal rights of both genders equally instead of Feminism which unfortunately does focus on women.

From what I've heard personally; The feminists I run into tend to laugh at oppression that happens to men, they don't fight along side the men when the men are marginalized like women can be marginalized and the men's oppression is dismissed as patriarchy. But if it was such an obvious patriarchy then why do so many men struggle, fill up prisons at 10:1 ratio over women and almost never get custody of kids... Anyway, just wanted to get the forums thoughts on this quote and topic.

Some female perspective on this would be most appreciated as well.

Please provide examples of when white, heterosexual men have been or are being ...''marginalized''? (in remote comparison to women/homosexuals/men who are not white)

Why does it matter if you're white or a male? A white male can't be oppressed? I'd say that's pretty sexist and racist of you to imply that. Even if I gave you examples I doubt that would suffice for you if you would make such a sexist racist claim about white males not being oppressed or being capable of being oppressed. This is almost bad as when deistpaladin was saying that males who fear rape are just insecure.

[*Deidre*]

Please provide examples of when white, heterosexual men have been or are being ...''marginalized''? (in remote comparison to women/homosexuals/men who are not white)

Why does it matter if you're white or a male? A white male can't be oppressed? I'd say that's pretty sexist and racist of you to imply that. Even if I gave you examples I doubt that would suffice for you if you would make such a sexist racist claim about white males not being oppressed or being capable of being oppressed. This is almost bad as when deistpaladin was saying that males who fear rape are just insecure.

What does it matter? White heterosexual men have been running the show in the US, anyways, for a long time. That's why it matters.

For you to suggest otherwise, explains why you honestly think 'men' are being marginalized in remote comparison to other sectors of the population.

And spare me your name calling. I'm not a racist or a sexist. I'm telling you facts, that apparently, you don't wish to accept.

This is why feminists laugh. Not because of men being marginalized, but because (white/heterosexual) men think they are being marginalized. lol

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

Whatever, I'm just going to put this here:

Feminism in the 1960s started with tupperware parties!

[*Deidre*]

Whatever, I'm just going to put this here:

Feminism in the 1960s started with tupperware parties!

Bad idea to enter this thread, but I can't read lies about feminism, and just say nothing.

[Coffee Jesus]

Yes, because many women are just pretending that they haven't been paid the same (as much) as men throughout the history of corporate America, etc.

If you choose to not believe it, that doesn't erase the fact that it went on, and still goes on. Although, great progress is being made on this front.

There's more than that. In "Sex in a Cold Climate", an Irish woman talks about how women who were raped were told to keep quiet. She was sent to live in a Magdelene institution for years because she told someone that her cousin had raped her.

But I will put on the shoes of a feminism skeptic, and contend that while women do make less money, men [edit] must face similarly bad discrimination or else they wouldn't be more prone to suicide. And even if the high suicide rate is due to maladaptive behaviors that men have forced on themselves, you could give a similar argument against the lower wages of females, contending that women just aren't as interested in success... even though more women than men graduate from college. [/edit]

[CapnAwesome]

The only example I can really think of is child custody hearings.

While sad, these are individual cases, not a remote comparison to women not being permitted to vote at one point, for example. As a gender.

African american men and women at one point, weren't permitted to attend (by law) schools that white kids attended.

Gay people have just recently received the right to legally marry in some parts of the US, and other countries.

Making fun of men on sitcoms, or men not winning their custody battles, is not remotely comparable to these other examples that I've provided.

I don't like to see anyone marginalized, but it's very insulting and dismissive to remotely equate it to legit, historical civil rights issues.

I'm not a feminist, btw.

I agree that they aren't comparable. You didn't ask for something as bad, just something that exists. That was the only example I could think of. I wasn't particularly trying to disagree, just to think of something. I do think when talking about this or similar subjects though it's important to talk about things that are happening presently. Your first two examples are past examples, if it's a fair point to use the past then how long are we allowed to go into the past?

[MJ the Skeptical]

What does it matter? White heterosexual men have been running the show in the US, anyways, for a long time. That's why it matters.

The point was that race was not including and it's irrelevant.

So, what you said proves that white males can't or aren't oppressed? for example all the white heterosexuals look out for each other and keep each other out of being oppressed or something? quite delusional, no?

For you to suggest otherwise, explains why you honestly think 'men' are being marginalized in remote comparison to other sectors of the population.

If we're talking about America, I'd say women have it just as good, worse or better depending where you go and you aren't oppressed to any other degree that men are.

I mean, if you were really oppressed we would put you women on the front lines and more of you would be in jail instead of a 10:1 prison ratio for men.

And spare me your name calling. I'm not a racist or a sexist. I'm telling you facts, that apparently, you don't wish to accept.

It wasn't name calling it was a judgement of the words you said, not your character. But I see you're going to play the professional victim card. I guess I'm oppressing you lol.

This is why feminists laugh. Not because of men being marginalized, but because (white/heterosexual) men think they are being marginalized. lol

You really are saying some racist and sexist things. Who brought up race again? Oh yeah, you. And yes, because of the color of someones skin that means they are never oppressed. Do you have any idea how dumb that sounds? you might as well come out as a feminist since you obviously think there is this elaborate patriarchy of white men keeping the rest of you down. Maybe instead of looking at race or gender like a simpleton you should look for actual factors of why we are all oppressed, yes even white people who happen to have penises.

[*Deidre*]

While sad, these are individual cases, not a remote comparison to women not being permitted to vote at one point, for example. As a gender.

African american men and women at one point, weren't permitted to attend (by law) schools that white kids attended.

Gay people have just recently received the right to legally marry in some parts of the US, and other countries.

Making fun of men on sitcoms, or men not winning their custody battles, is not remotely comparable to these other examples that I've provided.

I don't like to see anyone marginalized, but it's very insulting and dismissive to remotely equate it to legit, historical civil rights issues.

I'm not a feminist, btw.

I agree that they aren't comparable. You didn't ask for something as bad, just something that exists. That was the only example I could think of. I wasn't particularly trying to disagree, just to think of something. I do think when talking about this or similar subjects though it's important to talk about things that are happening presently. Your first two examples are past examples, if it's a fair point to use the past then how long are we allowed to go into the past?

It is fair, because it demonstrates why feminism originated. It demonstrates what women have had to undergo, and how, even to this day, they are often not paid an equitable salary their male counterparts, for doing the same job. That's why it's relevant.

We still don't have a female President. Hilary Clinton's aspirations of running for President, has caused her to gain media scrutiny over her looks. lol I mean, really? She's an incredibly accomplished, intelligent woman, but as long as she is female, she will be judged differently than a man running for office. That's a relevant and very real example.

It is what it is. I enjoy being a woman, but sexism and discrimination didn't just evaporate when women received the right to vote. Change takes time, and we have come a long way, but there are sooo many areas that need improvement.

Men are not marginalized in this way. Although, what I'd like to see change is women not automatically being granted custody of their children in divorce proceedings, simply because they are women. It seems a ''bad'' mother could be given parental rights over a fantastic dad, just because the laws have always favored women.

But, why is that? Because historically, women have raised the children. A paradigm created by Christian men, mainly. But, we won't bring religion into it. lol

The irony is that men have set up the laws, that now, they dislike.

I hear your points, and appreciate them.

---

What does it matter? White heterosexual men have been running the show in the US, anyways, for a long time. That's why it matters.

The point was that race was not including and it's irrelevant.

So, what you said proves that white males can't or aren't oppressed? for example all the white heterosexuals look out for each other and keep each other out of being oppressed or something? quite delusional, no?

For you to suggest otherwise, explains why you honestly think 'men' are being marginalized in remote comparison to other sectors of the population.

If we're talking about America, I'd say women have it just as good, worse or better depending where you go and you aren't oppressed to any other degree that men are.

I mean, if you were really oppressed we would put you women on the front lines and more of you would be in jail instead of a 10:1 prison ratio for men.

And spare me your name calling. I'm not a racist or a sexist. I'm telling you facts, that apparently, you don't wish to accept.

It wasn't name calling it was a judgement of the words you said, not your character. But I see you're going to play the professional victim card. I guess I'm oppressing you lol.

This is why feminists laugh. Not because of men being marginalized, but because (white/heterosexual) men think they are being marginalized. lol

You really are saying some racist and sexist things. Who brought up race again? Oh yeah, you. And yes, because of the color of someones skin that means they are never oppressed. Do you have any idea how dumb that sounds? you might as well come out as a feminist since you obviously think there is this elaborate patriarchy of white men keeping the rest of you down. Maybe instead of looking at race or gender like a simpleton you should look for actual factors of why we are all oppressed, yes even white people who happen to have penises.

Okay, please provide examples of how white heterosexual men have been marginalized. So far, this is just your opinion. Not sure why you are unwilling to provide examples to support your assertion?

What I say is true. If it weren't, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I shall say it differently, then. Christian conservative men have been running the US for a long time. Controlling the government, laws, etc.
Make of that what you will.