What would it take for you to believe in God?

[JuliaL]

I depend on faith, because I think faith is superior to reason.

And can you explain yourself? Why do you believe that faith is superior to reason? Is it that you have faith in faith.

Fair warning, I feel a recursion coming on.

[SteelCurtain]

I depend on faith, because I think faith is superior to reason. Reason rests in what my own mental faculties can comprehend. Also, I see a huge problem with what "facts". Facts are always interpreted and therefore subject to error. Also, I think my presuppositions are tested and proven true nearly every day. One of my presuppositions is that I am really sinful and don't deserve any good whatsoever. I believe that my sin has earned me eternal punishment in Hell, but by faith in Jesus, God gives me grace and shows me favor, instead of the punishment I deserve. I see that presupposition proven true every day.

I don't think there are any ways to prove 100% that God exists. God never seeks to prove that He exists. He just exists. Reason, intellect, and evidences are not enough.

So basically, what you experience in the real world contradicts what your book tells you, and your solution is to say: "I can't trust what I experience because reasoning and facts are wrong and subject to error."

Can't you see how intellectually backwards this is? When you start with the fact that your presupposition cannot be wrong, you are invalidating your faculties of reasoning. Why trust anything you experience? Why is it curiously only the things that contradict your god claim that are untrustworthy?

Personally, I abhor any dogma that preaches that man is broken and worthless. What a shitty thing to teach people, to teach children. It's disgusting. I don't need a god to be a good person. I treat people well, give back to my community, love my family, and do good by others, all without your god. How's that possible?

[te1148]

I depend on faith, because I think faith is superior to reason. Reason rests in what my own mental faculties can comprehend. Also, I see a huge problem with what "facts". Facts are always interpreted and therefore subject to error. Also, I think my presuppositions are tested and proven true nearly every day. One of my presuppositions is that I am really sinful and don't deserve any good whatsoever. I believe that my sin has earned me eternal punishment in Hell, but by faith in Jesus, God gives me grace and shows me favor, instead of the punishment I deserve. I see that presupposition proven true every day.

I don't think there are any ways to prove 100% that God exists. God never seeks to prove that He exists. He just exists. Reason, intellect, and evidences are not enough.

So basically, what you experience in the real world contradicts what your book tells you, and your solution is to say: "I can't trust what I experience because reasoning and facts are wrong and subject to error."

Can't you see how intellectually backwards this is? When you start with the fact that your presupposition cannot be wrong, you are invalidating your faculties of reasoning. Why trust anything you experience? Why is it curiously only the things that contradict your god claim that are untrustworthy?

Personally, I abhor any dogma that preaches that man is broken and worthless. What a shitty thing to teach people, to teach children. It's disgusting. I don't need a god to be a good person. I treat people well, give back to my community, love my family, and do good by others, all without your god. How's that possible?

I think man is broken, but certainly not worthless. And if this is true, then it would be horrible and wrong not to tell people. Being broken does not mean that is impossible to do good. We all have common grace from God that allows us to possess certain good attributes. But it does mean that every part of us is tainted by sin, and if there is a holy God, and if we are sinful people, then telling people that is the most loving thing one can do.

[Cyberman]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions. Consideration such as this is a rare commodity indeed from your brethren around here!

I would ask, however, that you read this short post on quote formatting before responding to my latest, just as a courtesy to the poor, hardworking, underloved and oversexed staff.

Now:

I depend on faith, because I think faith is superior to reason.

How? In what way superior? Superior in every situation, or just concerning matters of god claims?

Reason rests in what my own mental faculties can comprehend.

No, reason is the process (actually the set of processes) by which we discern reality from dreams and fiction. Regardless, if you're installing your god in the realm of being beyond what your mental faculties comprehend, what makes you even suspect it's even there? On what are you basing all these claims about this god? For example, why do you keep referring to it by the capitalised masculine pronoun?

Also, I see a huge problem with what "facts". Facts are always interpreted and therefore subject to error.

If a fact is subject to interpretation, it's not a fact. Facts have to be true for everyone and in all situations, by definition.

Also, I think my presuppositions are tested and proven true nearly every day.

What you think to be true is nowhere near as important or compelling as what you can show to be true.

One of my presuppositions is that I am really sinful and don't deserve any good whatsoever. I believe that my sin has earned me eternal punishment in Hell, but by faith in Jesus, God gives me grace and shows me favor, instead of the punishment I deserve. I see that presupposition proven true every day.

In what way can you possibly show this to be true? I take it you're not dead at the moment.

I don't think there are any ways to prove 100% that God exists. God never seeks to prove that He exists. He just exists.

Nobody is asking for 100% proof in what you claim. Just a drop of evidence, something we can examine, anything, will be a good start. Statements such as "He just exists" are not evidence, merely more claims piled on top of the claims you've already overdrawn on.

Reason, intellect, and evidences are not enough.

What else are you proposing that can possibly have any value as a means of discerning reality? Remember, faith is not a method of analysis.

[Esquilax]

What do you mean?

You asked whether someone had prayed for god to appear before them. If the answer had been "yes, and he appeared," you would have said therefore god exists. If the answer had been "yes, and he didn't appear," your answer would have been god exists anyway.

What's the point in asking the question if you only had one preferred conclusion in mind?

And regarding your presuppositions, how come our limited human consciousnesses just can't be trusted when it comes to matters of evidence and facts where they contradict what you want to believe, but you trust your mind absolutely when your presuppositions come up?

[SteelCurtain]

I think man is broken, but certainly not worthless. And if this is true, then it would be horrible and wrong not to tell people. Being broken does not mean that is impossible to do good. We all have common grace from God that allows us to possess certain good attributes. But it does mean that every part of us is tainted by sin, and if there is a holy God, and if we are sinful people, then telling people that is the most loving thing one can do.

So would you like to state your true purpose here, now?

[Zen Badger]

I don't think there are any ways to prove 100% that God exists. God never seeks to prove that He exists. He just exists. Reason, intellect, and evidences are not enough.

Even if you could unequivocally prove that your particular god existed, I still wouldn't follow him.

According to your bible he's a vile murderous arsehole who embodies the worst that is found in humanity.

[Whateverist]

Ten million dollars in small, unmarked bills and I'll give you a heartfelt hallelujah.

[Jackalope]

A lobotomy or serious head injury.

[Whateverist]

I don't think there are any ways to prove 100% that God exists. God never seeks to prove that He exists.

Yeah, why is it that he, the Easter bunny, Santa and so many imaginary beings stubbornly never seek to prove their existence. Well played secret friends.