Christianity IS Geocentrism.

[topher]

This is a point I recently raised with a Christian friend of mine. Potential rambling ahead, beware.

Before Galileo and Copernicus helped to destroy the geocentric model of the universe, it was almost universally accepted amongst all religious people, with Christians in particular. The reason is, no doubt, that it fits the best with the religious text, and if one accepts the Bible as fact, then geocentrism pretty much logically follows. After all, if an all-powerful, all-knowing, intelligent super-being created the Earth from nothing, with the intention of placing his most cherished creation upon it, it seems odd that he would NOT make it the center of the universe.

Of course, we know this is indeed not the case, the Earth is not the center of much of anything, as far as we can tell. Heliocentrism has been demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt, and even Christians accept this as fact. The more we discover about the universe, the more insignificant the Earth becomes. Each time we expand our cosmological horizon, the Bible makes less and less sense. (Except for Louie Giglio, who somehow believes the vastness of the universe actually proves God's existence. http://atheistforums.org/images/smilies/huh2.gif)

So why does the fact that there are hundreds of billions of galaxies, each containing hundreds of billions of stars, not raise a red flag for Christians? If the Lord is truly capable of anything, why not create the most simple design possible? Why fill the universe with an unimaginable number of worlds that humanity will never, ever explore? And, more importantly, what could be better proof for skeptics than the Earth being clearly created as the most important place in existence?

But, this will not faze a true believer, I've found. They are convinced that, while the Earth may not be the cosmological center of the universe, it is the spiritual center of the universe, and it is the only planet that God really even cares about.

This IS geocentrism. And it's as ridiculous to me as any "special snowflake" philosophy out there. So I went ahead and crunched a few numbers. Keep in mind, these are very rough estimates, and I was being pretty generous, keeping the numbers on the lower end of the scale.



Take the estimated number of planets in an average galaxy: 1,000,000,000,000 or 10^12.

Take the estimated number of galaxies in the observable universe: 150,000,000,000 or 1.5x10^11.

Therefore, the estimated number of planets in the observable universe roughly equals: 150,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 1.5x10^23. "One-hundred fifty sextillion" (!)

(To put that into perspective, the number of seconds that have passed since the Big Bang is roughly: 432,339,120,000,000,000 or 4.3233912 x 10^17. 1.5x10^23 is more than 375,000 times larger than 4.32x10^17.)

Therefore, the Earth represents 0.00000000000000000000000667% of the planets in our observable universe.

If one accepts a spiritually geocentric universe, then God ignores 99.99999999999999999999999333% of all planets in that universe.



Well, I hope this gets a discussion going on the subject. Christianity IS geocentrism, and nothing less. Hope you guys enjoyed the read.

[LostLocke]

OK, gonna go back to my JW years for this one.

The idea is that the universe is so vast for 2 possible (and very likely both) reasons....

First, in the original perfect world, man would live forever, giving him enough time to eventually develop the technology needed to reach far into space.

Second, there would be more life created on other worlds throughout the universe. But this creative process was put on hold till the debacle of Satan, Adam and Eve right on earth was sorted out first.
The idea here being that earth would set a 'legal precedent' for any other future life created: Rebel and things go south. Listen to Jehovah and all goes well.

[ThePinsir]

A genius god, a god who established the laws of quantum mechanics and relatively and chemistry; a god who created billions of suns; a god who's divine will created the principles that create black holes and pulsars...

...doesn't want you to touch yourself.

[topher]

A genius god, a god who established the laws of quantum mechanics and relatively and chemistry; a god who created billions of suns; a god who's divine will created the principles that create black holes and pulsars...

...doesn't want you to touch yourself.

No doubt referring to my favorite picture on the internet.

http://i.imgur.com/e9DJjCo.jpg

[Lek]

The bible does say that God created the earth for mankind and we are his most important creation here, but it doesn't say we are his greatest creation anywhere. For one thing the bible says we are below the angels. Who knows how many beings he created throughout the universe. I don't see where the vastness of the universe would raise a red flag for christians. He's no more or less God, whether he created just our solar system or an infinitely larger universe, or if he created any other beings whom he also loves. Christianity is anything but geocentric as the christian's life is to revolve around Christ, not ourselves. We are to give up our own desires for God's desire for us.

[topher]

The bible does say that God created the earth for mankind and we are his most important creation here, but it doesn't say we are his greatest creation anywhere. For one thing the bible says we are below the angels. Who knows how many beings he created throughout the universe. I don't see where the vastness of the universe would raise a red flag for christians. He's no more or less God, whether he created just our solar system or an infinitely larger universe, or if he created any other beings whom he also loves. Christianity is anything but geocentric as the christian's life is to revolve around Christ, not ourselves. We are to give up our own desires for God's desire for us.

I have a question.

Do you believe there are other universes?

Without delving into parallel universe stuff, or "soap-bubble" theories, or alternate futures, I don't mean extra trans-dimensional "beyond space and time" stuff; just simply, did God create other universes?

[Lek]

I have a question.

Do you believe there are other universes?

Without delving into parallel universe stuff, or "soap-bubble" theories, or alternate futures, I don't mean extra trans-dimensional "beyond space and time" stuff; just simply, did God create other universes?

It depends on the meaning of "universe". If it means every material thing that exists, then there is only one material universe. If it means something more limited, then I believe there could be more.

[max-greece]

OK, gonna go back to my JW years for this one.

The idea is that the universe is so vast for 2 possible (and very likely both) reasons....

First, in the original perfect world, man would live forever, giving him enough time to eventually develop the technology needed to reach far into space.

Second, there would be more life created on other worlds throughout the universe. But this creative process was put on hold till the debacle of Satan, Adam and Eve right on earth was sorted out first.
The idea here being that earth would set a 'legal precedent' for any other future life created: Rebel and things go south. Listen to Jehovah and all goes well.

So the Earth isn't the centre but it is first?

Kinda problematic in its own right isn't it.

The universe is 13.72 billion years old.
The earth is 4.6 billion years old.
Humanity is about 100,000 years old.
Jesus appeared 2,000 years ago.

Not exactly rushed off his feet is he, this God character?

[topher]

I have a question.

Do you believe there are other universes?

Without delving into parallel universe stuff, or "soap-bubble" theories, or alternate futures, I don't mean extra trans-dimensional "beyond space and time" stuff; just simply, did God create other universes?

It depends on the meaning of "universe". If it means every material thing that exists, then there is only one material universe. If it means something more limited, then I believe there could be more.

The only reason I ask is so I can put this in context.

Before the discovery that the Earth was indeed a planet, floating in space, it was believed the Earth was the only place you could really "be". It only made sense to say that the Earth is everything in "our world", most likely due to the spread of religion. A God or Gods, in the imperceptible Heavens, looking down upon the Earth. Pretty standard stuff for theism. Then, with the invention and improvement of the telescope, we were able to determine there are other worlds out there, orbiting our sun. Then, we found out that the Sun is just a star, and there are countless other solar systems out there. And then, we learned that all these billions stars form a galaxy. Then, we even learned that that there are as many galaxies in the universe as there are stars in a galaxy!

And throughout all of this discovery, the religious side's reaction was always:

"Okay, so maybe there are other planets, but there aren't other solar systems! Why would God do that?"

"Okay, so maybe there are other solar systems, but there aren't other galaxies! Why would God do that?"

And now we have "Okay, so maybe there are other galaxies, but there aren't other universes! Why would God do that?"

It is clear that these beliefs were created using the knowledge of the time, and that as more and more information comes our way, religious people will need to do more and more mental gymnastics in order to comply with popular science, just as they have done for the last 2000 years.


Moving on to the possibility of more of God's creations throughout the cosmos.

Were they created before or after us? What happens if they sin/fall from grace? Are they damned for all eternity the same as we were? Would/could God deliver his son/another son to their world to pay for their sins, even though the Bible says Jesus was his only son?

Questions like this are why outlandish speculations like these usually have no general consensus amongst Christians.

[Lek]

It depends on the meaning of "universe". If it means every material thing that exists, then there is only one material universe. If it means something more limited, then I believe there could be more.

The only reason I ask is so I can put this in context.

Before the discovery that the Earth was indeed a planet, floating in space, it was believed the Earth was the only place you could really "be". It only made sense to say that the Earth is everything in "our world", most likely due to the spread of religion. A God or Gods, in the imperceptible Heavens, looking down upon the Earth. Pretty standard stuff for theism. Then, with the invention and improvement of the telescope, we were able to determine there are other worlds out there, orbiting our sun. Then, we found out that the Sun is just a star, and there are countless other solar systems out there. And then, we learned that all these billions stars form a galaxy. Then, we even learned that that there are as many galaxies in the universe as there are stars in a galaxy!

And throughout all of this discovery, the religious side's reaction was always:

"Okay, so maybe there are other planets, but there aren't other solar systems! Why would God do that?"

"Okay, so maybe there are other solar systems, but there aren't other galaxies! Why would God do that?"

And now we have "Okay, so maybe there are other galaxies, but there aren't other universes! Why would God do that?"

It is clear that these beliefs were created using the knowledge of the time, and that as more and more information comes our way, religious people will need to do more and more mental gymnastics in order to comply with popular science, just as they have done for the last 2000 years.


Moving on to the possibility of more of God's creations throughout the cosmos.

Were they created before or after us? What happens if they sin/fall from grace? Are they damned for all eternity the same as we were? Would/could God deliver his son/another son to their world to pay for their sins, even though the Bible says Jesus was his only son?

Questions like this are why outlandish speculations like these usually have no general consensus amongst Christians.

Reasonable questions, but that's a lot of stuff to answer. I'll have to get back to you tomorrow.