Discussion w/ a Theist RE: Premarital Sex

[bennyboy]

Different strokes for different folks. It would be stupid to say that you can't still have a happy marriage just because you didn't have sex or live with each other first.

probably because they'd be killed if they did have premarital sex.

I didn't say people can't have a happy marriage because they had premarital sex. I said in my case, I think the fact that my wife was a virgin had a good impact on our relationship.

As for the "killed if they did have premarital sex" I think that's a pretty ignorant comment. Koreans are very eye-on-the-prize and have a sense of how a good life plays out: work hard as a student, get into a career, meet someone in a similar circumstance, and make a match that works for them as well as the families. That's the difference between Eastern exocentrism and Western egocentrism, where people are more likely to say, "Fuck school, I'ma get laid today. Fuck my family, I love this chick and we're getting married in Vegas." I don't think premarital sex is wrong, but it can sometimes lead to mis-timed marriages, or a young man becoming a father when he didn't want to, or a young woman giving up her chance for post-secondary education. That's a big price to pay for the excitement of young romance and a few orgasms-- and it really serves no purpose.

[StealthySkeptic]

Different strokes for different folks. It would be stupid to say that you can't still have a happy marriage just because you didn't have sex or live with each other first.

probably because they'd be killed if they did have premarital sex.

I didn't say people can't have a happy marriage because they had premarital sex. I said in my case, I think the fact that my wife was a virgin had a good impact on our relationship.

As for the "killed if they did have premarital sex" I think that's a pretty ignorant comment. Koreans are very eye-on-the-prize and have a sense of how a good life plays out: work hard as a student, get into a career, meet someone in a similar circumstance, and make a match that works for them as well as the families. That's the difference between Eastern exocentrism and Western egocentrism, where people are more likely to say, "Fuck school, I'ma get laid today. Fuck my family, I love this chick and we're getting married in Vegas." I don't think premarital sex is wrong, but it can sometimes lead to mis-timed marriages, or a young man becoming a father when he didn't want to, or a young woman giving up her chance for post-secondary education. That's a big price to pay for the excitement of young romance and a few orgasms-- and it really serves no purpose.

I think everybody THINKS Western morals are loose and so makes these broad stereotypes about "egocentrism" that apparently apply to a large swath of America based on nothing more than gut feeling. Whereas we have the opposite problem- people are so damn uptight about sex that no one goes into it informed.

[bennyboy]

Look at rates of teenage sex and pregnancy in the US, and then look at the same stats in Korea. You say people are uptight about sex, but that's not true-- young people are fine with sex. The uptight ones are the adults who ignore it or think their cheap emotional programming will overcome natural impulses.

The question, to me, is this-- does premarital sex, on average, improve the quality of a young person's life? I'd argue that falling in love and social interaction have a great positive impact. Sex-- well, personally, I think it has a psychological cost for very many.

[vodkafan]

Look at rates of teenage sex and pregnancy in the US, and then look at the same stats in Korea. You say people are uptight about sex, but that's not true-- young people are fine with sex. The uptight ones are the adults who ignore it or think their cheap emotional programming will overcome natural impulses.

The question, to me, is this-- does premarital sex, on average, improve the quality of a young person's life? I'd argue that falling in love and social interaction have a great positive impact. Sex-- well, personally, I think it has a psychological cost for very many.

Sorry to jump in the middle of a discussion...I think the impact of sex entirely depends on the emotional make up of individuals....it is emotional dynamite for some and for others just no big deal.

[bennyboy]

Look at rates of teenage sex and pregnancy in the US, and then look at the same stats in Korea. You say people are uptight about sex, but that's not true-- young people are fine with sex. The uptight ones are the adults who ignore it or think their cheap emotional programming will overcome natural impulses.

The question, to me, is this-- does premarital sex, on average, improve the quality of a young person's life? I'd argue that falling in love and social interaction have a great positive impact. Sex-- well, personally, I think it has a psychological cost for very many.

Sorry to jump in the middle of a discussion...I think the impact of sex entirely depends on the emotional make up of individuals....it is emotional dynamite for some and for others just no big deal.

This is true. But the question is-- can people know before they get into it how it will affect them? I think a lot of people are diminished by early sexual experiences-- because they are forced, or made under false pretenses, or made under the influence of alcohol. They are made by foolish girls thinking at the age of 18 that "this is the one," only to realize soon after that they've lost something, and to be ashamed that they gave it up so easily to a guy of little quality. I'm not a woman, but I don't see that early sexual experiences are a big plus for young women.

I don't think waiting to have sex diminishes a person in any way, except in that they have some insecurities about their sexual prowess or worthiness. But that's what honeymoons are for.

[vodkafan]

This is true. But the question is-- can people know before they get into it how it will affect them? I think a lot of people are diminished by early sexual experiences-- because they are forced, or made under false pretenses, or made under the influence of alcohol. They are made by foolish girls thinking at the age of 18 that "this is the one," only to realize soon after that they've lost something, and to be ashamed that they gave it up so easily to a guy of little quality. I'm not a woman, but I don't see that early sexual experiences are a big plus for young women.

I don't think waiting to have sex diminishes a person in any way, except in that they have some insecurities about their sexual prowess or worthiness. But that's what honeymoons are for.

The sexual urge and the urge to experiment is most strongest in young people. That's just biology at work, raging hormones.
From my own experience way back when, most teenagers go at their own pace in this area when they feel themselves ready.
Of course we would want to protect our youngsters from emotional harm from getting pressured to do stuff, or being preyed on by older people . That's what the laws are for.
Education has the biggest part to play, including educating about morality and consequences. Give the kids all the facts.
But I don't see a need to wrap it up in religion. Religion is all about punishment and instilling guilt.

[bennyboy]

Education has the biggest part to play, including educating about morality and consequences. Give the kids all the facts.
But I don't see a need to wrap it up in religion. Religion is all about punishment and instilling guilt.

I'm not sure religion is all about those things. Religion is like anything else-- it can have a good effect when applied by someone with good intentions, and it can have a bad effect when applied by an asshole. For example, a very moderate Christian might take the Bible as a mixture of history and figurative language, and teach his children that the mythology is less important than accepting that we are part of a community, and that forgiveness is more important than revenge.

Atheism at its institutional worst really is indistinguishable from religion at its institutional worst. Russian and Chinese people know all about that.

With regard to sexuality, I think one could draw useful moral messages if one chose to do so: for example, that the whole family is involved in a pregnancy, and the child should consider this fact when making romantic decisions. That being said, I think American Republican fucktards with their message of religious intolerance and their guilt trips are doing their children a real disservice.

[StealthySkeptic]

This is true. But the question is-- can people know before they get into it how it will affect them? I think a lot of people are diminished by early sexual experiences-- because they are forced, or made under false pretenses, or made under the influence of alcohol. They are made by foolish girls thinking at the age of 18 that "this is the one," only to realize soon after that they've lost something, and to be ashamed that they gave it up so easily to a guy of little quality. I'm not a woman, but I don't see that early sexual experiences are a big plus for young women.

I don't think waiting to have sex diminishes a person in any way, except in that they have some insecurities about their sexual prowess or worthiness. But that's what honeymoons are for.

The sexual urge and the urge to experiment is most strongest in young people. That's just biology at work, raging hormones.
From my own experience way back when, most teenagers go at their own pace in this area when they feel themselves ready.
Of course we would want to protect our youngsters from emotional harm from getting pressured to do stuff, or being preyed on by older people . That's what the laws are for.
Education has the biggest part to play, including educating about morality and consequences. Give the kids all the facts.
But I don't see a need to wrap it up in religion. Religion is all about punishment and instilling guilt.

I wish I could give this post a million kudos. It's SO true. Let's not pretend that young people are somehow stupid or that they'll always get hurt by premarital sex. They DO however need to be educated on contraception, as there is a stifling silence around sexuality caused by religion otherwise.

[vodkafan]

I wish I could give this post a million kudos. It's SO true. Let's not pretend that young people are somehow stupid or that they'll always get hurt by premarital sex. They DO however need to be educated on contraception, as there is a stifling silence around sexuality caused by religion otherwise.

Thanks StealthySkeptic! Any kudos is gratefully received..

[StealthySkeptic]

I wish I could give this post a million kudos. It's SO true. Let's not pretend that young people are somehow stupid or that they'll always get hurt by premarital sex. They DO however need to be educated on contraception, as there is a stifling silence around sexuality caused by religion otherwise.

Thanks StealthySkeptic! Any kudos is gratefully received..

No problem!