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ChadWooters Wrote:I know that many consider some of my firm (and oft repeated) beliefs about atheism ignorant and provocative. For example, I still think nihilism is the logical extreme of atheism, even though many atheists believe that they are not themselves nihilists. Personally I don’t think they have thought it through all the way for whatever reason, but haven’t pressed the issue recently except on threads devoted explicitly to meaning and significance.
So it occurred to me upon reading your post in the above thread that I am one of those who has has insisted that I myself am not a nihilist. I haven't ever investigated the concept in any formal way so my rejection of the label was based on a vague equating of nihilism with lack of meaning and satisfaction in life.* So I decided to look it up.
*From wikipedia:
Nihilism (/ˈnaɪ.ɨlɪzəm/ or /ˈniː.ɨlɪzəm/; from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical doctrine that suggests the negation of one or more reputedly meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived. Nihilism can also take epistemological or ontological/metaphysical forms, meaning respectively that, in some aspect, knowledge is not possible, or that reality does not actually exist.
The term is sometimes used in association with anomie to explain the general mood of despair at a perceived pointlessness of existence that one may develop upon realising there are no necessary norms, rules, or laws. Movements such as Futurism and deconstruction, among others, have been identified by commentators as "nihilistic" at various times in various contexts.
Nihilism is also a characteristic that has been ascribed to time periods: for example, Jean Baudrillard and others have called postmodernity a nihilistic epoch, and some Christian theologians and figures of religious authority have asserted that postmodernit and many aspects of modernity represent a rejection of theism, and that such rejection of their theistic doctrine entails nihilism.
It seems the word "nihilism" is a great house with many rooms each with a specific meaning. So it would probably be best to ask you, Chad, to specify what sense of the word in particular you have in mind.
In the meantime, it occurs to me that rather than deny it, I could as easily claim it but assure you that I've never felt any lack on its account. To me, the lack of objective norms and authoritative values just feels real. In the great scheme of things, a human life -my own included- doesn't matter a great deal; but within my perspective, of course, it means the world. I don't miss having a schema to explain away this obvious contradiction nor does its lack concern me. It is liberating and, more importantly, rings true for me. It feels authentic. So, if you like, I am happy to claim the mantle of nihilist so long as that is not understood as any kind of despair.
The Wiki article is conflating objective meaning with intrinsic value. Simply because we supply our own meanings to our own lives, it doesn't follow that our lives are worthless.
My own answer is: no. I supply my own meaning to my own life.
I would think the logical extreme of atheism is the disbelief in all supernatural forces. Not just deities. I don't think nihilism has anything to do with atheism.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
October 4, 2014 at 4:53 pm (This post was last modified: October 4, 2014 at 5:03 pm by Whateverist.)
(October 4, 2014 at 4:34 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I don't think nihilism has anything to do with atheism.
That's what I would say too if nihilism is seen as despair in the face of a lack of objective meaning. But if nihilism is defined as simply a rejection of objective values and meaning, then I guess I can cop to that. My subjective ones suit me just fine.
Woah, deja-vu. I've a feeling that I've had this discussion with Chad before.
Okay, let's start at the beginning.
Basically, the argument that nihilism is the logical extreme of atheism relies on a logical fallacy called Denying the antecedent:
If P, then Q.
Not P.
Therefore, not Q.
Here:
If god, then life is has objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.
Not god. (atheism)
Therefore, life is has no objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.
The only way this argument can be considered logical if one can establish that god can one and only reason for life having objective meaning, purpose or value. A tall order, given that god hasn't even been established as a sufficient reason for those things.
Second problem:
Judging by the wiki-article, nihilism seems to be an umbrella term comprising of many different outlooks. This leads to a common misconception and a fallacy of equivocation equivalent to saying "nihilists believe in nothing". However, I may be an existential nihilist without being a moral nihilist. I may be an existential and moral nihilist without being an ontological or epistemological nihilist. Or I may be all of them without developing the "general mood of despair".
Simply put, saying atheism leads to nihilism isn't sufficient - you have to explain which specific form of nihilism is supposed to the logical extreme of atheism. Then you have to explain why it is "logical" and not just an "extreme".
Third problem:
This is the issue with the wiki-article itself. Certain words, and therefore, concepts, used interchangeably. Concepts like "objective", "intrinsic", "inherent" and "necessary" are treated as all but same. They are not.
For example - I'm definitely not an ontological or epistemological nihilist.
But, I don't think life has an intrinsic value or an objective meaning. However, it I think life does have an objective value and objective purpose and subjective meaning. I don't regard morality as inherent, but I do regard it as objective and abstractly contrived. I don't recognize any necessary laws or rules (other than physical laws, that is), but I don't perceive pointlessness because I recognize objective and inherent laws and rules. So, what kind of nihilist would that make me if I fit the terms of the definition but not the essence of it?
October 4, 2014 at 5:20 pm (This post was last modified: October 4, 2014 at 5:29 pm by Mudhammam.)
(October 4, 2014 at 4:55 pm)genkaus Wrote: The only way this argument can be considered logical if one can establish that god can one and only reason for life having objective meaning, purpose or value. A tall order, given that god hasn't even been established as a sufficient reason for those things.
Outside of intentional design in the internal structure of the physical Universe, which would seem to imply a mind somehow analogous to a human mind, and that has free will in the indeterminate sense and utilizes thought in bringing about a subsequent result through purposeful action, as in God, I can conceive of no other possibility for what might be considered objective meaning, purpose, or value. In this sense each agency of causation serves an objective purpose as each is like a necessary part in a large machine; however, it doesn't mean each part ever realizes the "ultimate purpose" of the machine, and it may not even be any more desirable than the "purpose" which the "nihilist" supposedly lacks.
Quote:Simply put, saying atheism leads to nihilism isn't sufficient - you have to explain which specific form of nihilism is supposed to the logical extreme of atheism. Then you have to explain why it is "logical" and not just an "extreme".
I think "atheism implies or necessitates existential nihilism" is a fair statement; as to whether or not God solves the existential problem is another matter (I can't see that it would, as we could always subsume the existence of God into the larger question of meaning or intention à la an infinite regress of "whys").
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
October 4, 2014 at 5:34 pm (This post was last modified: October 4, 2014 at 5:40 pm by Exian.)
To me, nihilism coupled with despair, or confused as despair, is the result of not following through. Nihilism stops short of taking in all factors of the universe.
As for atheism leading to nihilism, there is no real connection. One can be an atheist and never try to understand life or existence.
As for me, atheism has lead to a thirst for knowledge. I believe humans are animals. I believe life is the complexification of non-life. I believe there will be 100% entropy. Notice I didn't say "just animals" or "just complex non-life". Not one of these beliefs causes me despair; my ability to experience joy is not infringed upon.
When one considers the death of the universe, if that is what will happen, it's easy to feel despair and sort of give up, asking "What's the point?", and stopping short there. Recognize that this is still a very human-centric thought. Its saying "If I'm not special, if there's nothing I can do to change our futurless future, why try?" The point is, regardless of when we die off, regardless of how or where we end, regardless of our finite future, we will have happened. We will have felt enjoyment. We will have enjoyed the knowledge of our ancestors, and built on that for the enjoyment of generations to come. Our ability to feel all the various forms of happiness is not changed by the universe's impending end, or even by the fact that emotions are chemical and electrical activity in the brain.
I can't remember where this verse is from, I think it got removed from canon:
"I don't hang around with mostly men because I'm gay. It's because men are better than women. Better trained, better equipped...better. Just better! I'm not gay."
(October 4, 2014 at 5:46 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: My feeling is that theism is the acknowledgement of purpose. In that respect I can view nihilism as it's polar opposite.
