what would make you change your beliefs?

[chatpilot]

fr0d0 wrote: "He never gave irrefutable proof _ever_ cp. Please go and find me some if you think that's wrong. "

Not to the world in general, but I am pretty sure that his proofs to Thomas and Moses were pretty irrefutable to both those individuals. Wait, what about the Hebrews that sojourned in the desert? Didn't he at one point follow them around as a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day, did they not hear the thundering of his voice as they waited at the base of the mountain while Moses spoke with God? It is now in this day and age that there is no irrefutable proof of Gods existence whatsoever.

He did alot in the Old Testament and even Christ supposedly did some amazing things but these things are only true in the bible and those who choose to believe in these tales.

[AtheistPhil]

AtheistPhil -

I agree that consciousness isn't a physical thing (although I know what I said, I was just being very general), or a set of physical things. I also agree that consciousness relies on physical things, but in the sense that software relies on whatever hosts it. And I agree that consciousness can disappear from the body and return to it. So, we're talking about something that is not physical, relies on something physical to function with the body, and can leave, and return. Doesn't that sound like an independent thing which uses the body? Doesn't that mean that we are not our bodies, rather, we use our bodies to function within the material world?

You're saying that consciousness relies on physical things but you said earlier that consciousness = everything, isn't that a contradiction ?

The terms "disappear" "appear" aren't appropriate here (too physicaly oriented). I'd say consciousness "happens" at some point in time and space.
Technically, if we were to create 2 identical set of neurones with exactly the same parameters, the two flows of electrons and chemicals would make the exact same consciousness happens at the same time, but with different positions in space.

Consciousness is certainly not independent, it is matter that defines the flow of electrons and chemicals. And if the consciousness seems to change/interact with physical things, it is ultimately the matter responsible for the flow which makes this action.

The particules of our body "create" consciousness which interacts with the particules of our body.
We are both of them: the particules and the interactions between particules.

[fr0d0]

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fr0d0 wrote: "He never gave irrefutable proof _ever_ cp. Please go and find me some if you think that's wrong. "

Not to the world in general, but I am pretty sure that his proofs to Thomas and Moses were pretty irrefutable to both those individuals. Wait, what about the Hebrews that sojourned in the desert? Didn't he at one point follow them around as a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day, did they not hear the thundering of his voice as they waited at the base of the mountain while Moses spoke with God? It is now in this day and age that there is no irrefutable proof of Gods existence whatsoever.

He did alot in the Old Testament and even Christ supposedly did some amazing things but these things are only true in the bible and those who choose to believe in these tales.

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No chatty I'm pretty sure there is never irrefutable proof. The whole point of the Moses story was that you can't see God. He saw 'where he'd been'.

I know people who speak about Gods voice and God being in natural events and I'm sure you did in your church.

[Edwardo Piet]

If no one ever lost consciousness then no one would ever go into a coma or anything.

EvF

[Knight]

Knight -

I agree that our brains are vastly more complex than any computer. I also agree with the evolution of the physical body. Do you agree with me that consciousness is separate from the physical body? Come on, you owe me.

Sorry, but I don't agree. If consciousness was separate from our physical body, it would not be affected by physical means. There are many cases where head injuries result in the loss of memory. Also, as we age and brain cells continue to die (and neuron connections are broken), we begin to lose memory and awareness of the present. If consciousness was separate, this shouldn't happen, as our awareness would be separate from our body and thus protected from trauma/deterioration. Our conscious state would also not be affected by drugs or chemicals. Since all of the above have a significant impact on our consciousness, consciousness must be physical (well, chemical to be more specific).

[Edwardo Piet]

Exactly... and not only is there evidence that our consciousness is physical but there's absolutely no evidence to back up the assertion that if it isn't... nevertheless why shouldn't we have conscious memory of getting knocked out if there really is "no such thing as unconsciousness" as Godhead claims?

EvF

[Knight]

Also, consciousness (states of it) can be correctly predicted through brain scans. Now, certain thoughts and behaviors can also be predicted:
Read Your Mind

Consciousness in Vegetative Patients

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nevertheless why shouldn't we have conscious memory of getting knocked out if there really is "no such thing as unconsciousness" as Godhead claims?

I have no idea. Even if, going against the evidence, we were to assume that consciousness was not physical, the fact that we have no recollection suggests that the consciousness temporarily disappeared...which implies that we, for as long as the knock out occurred, died. Alas, there has never been a case of a brain-dead person coming back to life (or consciousness/self-awareness), and by brain-dead I mean no activity...actually brain dead. That puts a major strain on the nonphysical conscious idea. When we are knocked out, we are not dead. We still have brain activity, which is why we are able to later regain consciousness.

This has me wondering...if it was possible to successfully do a brain-swap, what would happen? If we could isolate the brain from the body and preserve it somehow, would it be possible to live consciously in a different body...or perhaps an artificial body which mirrors our own? I would say the entire process is probably impossible, at least now. The body may also reject the brain (or vice versa), as is often the case in organ transplants. Still, if this could be done successfully, it would be irrefutable proof that the brain is completely responsible for our consciousness.

[Godhead]

AtheistPhil -

Yes, I'm saying that consciousness = god = everything. Here's something that I wrote last night and saved :


You have a circle. Everything inside the circle is the "realm" of manifest things, ie, all things that can be said to exist : Physical things, ideas, logic, absolutely anything at all that you can say exists, even if it's not tangible.

Everything inside that circle is assembled in such a way whereby each thing is a whole / distinct thing in itself, but also contains every other thing. This includes parts of things. Each thing is each other. In other words, the circle contains one thing only, and each "thing" is an aspect of the whole. As an aspect, it's distinct, as part of a whole, it's not.

God = the circle + the infinity outside it. The whole is in god, a part of god, but god is infinitely beyond the whole. Outside the circle lies all potential, or "nothing" (nothing meaning nothing manifest). This is why I believe that god transcends all paradox and contradiction, and why nothing is created (rather, manifest), and why everything that doesn't exist (lies in the circle) already exists, as potential (outide the circle). What we call creation is manifestation of potential, and what we call nothing is potential.

I believe that god is infinitely beyond absolutely everything conceiveable and inconceiveable. I believe that god is so transcendental, that I'd even say, although perhaps not mean it literally but just as an expression of how transcendenatl I think god is; that it is beyond itself, the circle and the infinity that I've described. You could say that I have a very high opinion of god.

These beliefs lead me to :

Love all things (since I am all things), no exceptions whatsoever, you name it, anything.
Believe that literally anything is possible
Not fear death



So what I'm saying is that everything is everything. You, Phil, have a consciousness. That consciousness is hosted by a body. That body, and every part of it, is a consciousness. Any combination of anything+anything is a consciousness. The relationship between the corner of the piece of paper that's in front of me and your ear, is a consciousness. My opinion about horses is a consciousness. Events are consciousness. You name it, it's a consciousness. Everything inside the circle that I described is like a soup. Put a spoon in it and take some out and look at it, and you're looking at a consciousness. I don't know the technical details as you do (ie what you're saying about neurons etc), but I can say that all of that is consciousness and not contradict my definition of god. Given my definition, is it possible to be (consciously be, be conscious of being) two things at once? Yes. I believe that it is possible to be, for example, the consciousness of an entire galaxy, by expanding your consciousness until it "rubs shoulders" as it were, with other consciousness. Our identity is mostly confined to an idea of Phil, or Godhead, or whoever we are, but I think you can expand it.


EvF -

My view is that when we "lose" consciousness, it is our bodies (which is also consciousness) that lose the consciousness of who we are (the identity that uses the body). I see things as a macrocosm. I take a step back from everything, see the whole, and see the entire thing as consciousness. I don't look at details and make distinctions. It's a bit like looking at a painting featuring the sea. You look at it, and you see a blue sea. But if you look at it closely, it's not quite blue, it contains other colours and may even be more green than blue. But step back, and you see the sea, and the sea is blue. So regardless of what colours were used to paint it, it's blue, because the sea is blue, and the contradiction of there being other colours there doesn't matter. It's blue when you step back, and it's something else when you look closely. It's both.



Knight -

I don't believe that our consciousness is affected by the body. Because I believe that it is separate, when we lose our memory, what happens is that the consciousness itself if 100% fine, it is the body which loses the ability to "receive" (like an antenna) the full consciousness. We think through our brains, our brains are receivers, our consciousness transmits. Any damage to the brain or body which results in the appearance of hindrance to awareness is actually a problem purely in the brain or body. When your tv packs in, the broadcast continues, but you don't get to see it on your particular screen. I believe that all the mechanisms which seem to indicate that the brain is creating consciousness, is merely the brain's means of receiving the broadcast. If people who never saw a tv suddenly saw one, they'd think that the tv is creating the events shown on the screen. But we'd know that all the tv is doing is facillitating the presentation of the images which we interpret as events (ie a programme). Brain activity is just brain activity.

When we have no recollection, it's not that the consciousness disappeared, it merely shifted (as in, turned around and looked at something else, and became aware (conscious) of that). If we don't recall that, that doesn't mean that our consciousness ceased, and a good explanation could be that we associate so much with our body and physical environment, that anything else is alien to us, and we can't make sense of it so we filter out of and forget. I'm speculating of course but it doesn't seem unreasonable, if you believe as I do, of course.

[Edwardo Piet]

My view is that when we "lose" consciousness, it is our bodies (which is also consciousness) that lose the consciousness of who we are (the identity that uses the body).

But... not just our body... but also the part of us that thinks - our consciousness - doesn't have memory of where our consciousness went beforehand. So what makes you think there isn't a loss of consciousness and that it really does go anywhere else?

EvF

[Godhead]

EvF -

The fact that you're asking shows that you can't imagine where it would go (and that therefore it must have just disappeared), and that's understandable, as neither do I. And that's just it. We're humans in a physical world, this is all we know. What else is there? We can't imagine, because our primary experience is our everyday experience (apart from dreams). And that's why I believe that we simply can't relate to whatever we became aware of when our consciousness left our body. if that's the cse, then surely whatever we experience while away is very different to what we usually experience, perhaps even something that we can't even relate to. I think we filter it out, and forget, or, our brains can't make sense of what we experienced (why would it? It's designed / "tuned" for this physical world and everything in it). But having said that, I'm sure we've all heard of people who claim to have seen this or that while away.