MERGED: The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ (Part 1) & (Part 2)

[ManMachine]

From what I understand the historical records do seem to suggest Jesus was crucified by the Romans

And what 'historical records' might those be?

I'm expressing the current consensus opinion.

Scholastic consensus on the historical facts about Jesus

Most (not all) Historians accept that Jesus was real and that certain events did happen, one of them being his crucifixion. This is supported by a concordance of non-biblical sources. In isolation each one of these is questionable but to have all three is more than an historical coincidence. Having said that there are still those who disagree with the conclusion.

From Wiki

Crucifixion of Jesus

An early non-Christian reference to the crucifixion of Jesus is likely to be Mara Bar-Serapion's letter to his son, written sometime after AD 73 but before the 3rd century AD. The letter includes no Christian themes and the author is presumed to be a pagan. The letter refers to the retributions that followed the unjust treatment of three wise men: Socrates, Pythagoras, and "the wise king" of the Jews. Some scholars see little doubt that the reference to the execution of the "king of the Jews" is about the crucifixion of Jesus, while others place less value in the letter, given the possible ambiguity in the reference.

In the Antiquities of the Jews (written about 93 AD) Jewish historian Josephus, stated (Ant 18.3) that Jesus was crucified by Pilate, writing that:

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, ... He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles ... And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross ..."

Most modern scholars agree that while this Josephus passage (called the Testimonium Flavianum) includes some later interpolations, it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate. It is notable that Josephus and other historians didn't live during Jesus' lifetime. James Dunn states that there is "broad consensus" among scholars regarding the nature of an authentic reference to the crucifixion of Jesus in the Testimonium.

Early in the second century another reference to the crucifixion of Jesus was made by Tacitus, generally considered one of the greatest Roman historians. Writing in The Annals (c. 116 AD), Tacitus described the persecution of Christians by Nero and stated (Annals 15.44) that Pilate ordered the execution of Jesus:

"Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus."

Scholars generally consider the Tacitus reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate to be genuine, and of historical value as an independent Roman source. Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.

Another possible reference to the crucifixion ("hanging" cf. Luke 23:39; Galatians 3:13) is found in the Babylonian Talmud:

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"

—Sanhedrin 43a, Babylonian Talmud (Soncino Edition)

Although the question of the equivalence of the identities of Yeshu and Jesus has at times been debated, many historians agree that the above 2nd-century passage is likely to be about Jesus, Peter Schäfer stating that there can be no doubt that this narrative of the execution in the Talmud refers to Jesus of Nazareth. Robert Van Voorst states that the Sanhedrin 43a reference to Jesus can be confirmed not only from the reference itself, but from the context that surrounds it.

MM

[His_Majesty]

Despite my continual requests for you stop being stupid you insist on being just that.

I am just using your shitty logic against you...don't get upset at me

You can attempt to use fallacious equivocation to make your non-descript god-child-man-ghost more real, but when we bracket in the fact that abiogensis is a theoretical paradigm based on observations that have been made in the reality we exist in ('life' didn't exist, now it does), we can see that equating that to a magical jew coming back from the dead (which is demonstrably impossible using the exact same standard) is fucking ridiculous.

In my opinion, a dead jew coming back to life can't be more ridiculous than inanimate matter coming to life and beginning to think and talk to each other.

I believe that a dead jew came BACK to life...and you believe that inanimate matter came TO life. There have been more people in history that corroborated have my claims than yours, and yours is supposed to be the natural one

And by the way, abiogenesis is scientifically unproven...I don't know what it is you were attempting to do up there, but let me remind you that it is unproved, and unobserved.

Defend your assertion. What evidence do you have that this Jésus character came back to life, or was even killed in the first place?

Included in the title of the thread is the ever so apparent "Part 1"...which would seem to suggest that more is coming.

We will get there in small steps, not leaps and bounds.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

So the above can all be summed up as "I have no evidence to present and will continue to not present it".

You're a waste of everyone's time, but I guess it's offset by the fact that you're wasting more of your own.

[His_Majesty]

But you don't know what his sources were, or even if he did use contemporary sources at all, which is exactly what you pointed out to Jenny. The difference is that while we have no indication at all that Josephus used quality sources within his own writing, you're just assuming that he did for convenience; that's a positive claim with a burden of proof.

Well I will put it to you like this: He wrote his piece in the 90'sAD, and at best he is saying that there exists a traditional belief going around that a man named Jesus, who was a wise man who gained many followers amongst both Jews and Greeks, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and the traditional belief is still being held til this day.

Now, that belief can be traced right back to Pontius Pilate, because we know from Paul's writings that the belief in the Resurrection was a belief that was held DURING the reign of Tiberius, and Pilate served under Tiberius' reign, and Paul WAS a contemporary source.

So it all just flows together like pearls on a string.

It tells me that word of mouth spread. That's not a particularly controversial claim, but it also doesn't come close to addressing my point. So I wonder why you bothered saying it at all, other than as deflection because you have no real response.

Bullshit. It's not as if I just said "word of mouth" and left it at that. I said other stuff too, you know? Like how you said, "It'd be like if we were only just now getting written records of stuff that happened in the nineties." And my point was Christianity had spread far and wide DESPITE not having written records. So in other words, written record's weren't necessary for the word to spread.

How is that for clarity?

What? How would denouncing him as a charlatan, or servant of the devil, or what have you, corroborate what he was doing? That's complete nonsense. To be clear, christianity did precisely the same thing to the followers of Baal later on, twisting and corrupting that religion so that Baal became Beelzebub. In fact, cultural appropriation and propaganda are just kinda what christianity did back then; how can you say it wouldn't work when it did, on a much larger scale, for your own religion?

And exactly what would they say as a way to describe him as being a servant of the devil? Healing the sick? Water to wine? Feeding the multitude? Raising people from the dead? Performing exorcisms?

"This man is a servant of the devil, because he healed the sick, turned water into wine...he also feed the hungry, raised the dead, and freed people from being possessed by demon's!!!....he is a servant of the devil, I say, servant of the devil!!!!"

Like I said, more harm than good.

Given that the claims of christian persecution back then were, in the main, nothing more than fictional "piety porn" written by christian authors with little to no corroboration, that then got adopted and exaggerated as part of the christian narrative later on... yes, it explains it quite comprehensively.

Ok, well I will put it to you like this...there is no historical record of Christian crusades in the first century either...and at least I have one non-Christian account of Christian persecution, which back up my position...you don't have anything to back up yours..and if it was the behavior of barbaric Christians that caused Christianity to spread (according to your messed up logic), then Islam should be the world's #1 religion.

Not that your argument works at all to begin with; those 2 billion current christians exist because their religion benefits from the extended period of cultural domination and indoctrination it enjoys... because of the violence they performed in the past. Modern christianity isn't some isolated and unconnected religion that just popped up fifty years ago, dude; it is the current iteration of a continuous movement that established itself to this point via violence and dishonest cultural appropriation. Not to mention, I wasn't just talking about the armies, but the missionaries and preachers... all the other people who helped spread and maintain christianity that weren't Jesus?

Genetic fallacy.

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I'd like to see the entire passage then.

The paragraph before the passage in question is a list of calamities that have befallen the Jews. The passage immediately after is a further listing.

The passage with the mention of Jesus does not fit. If it is removed, the preceding passage and the following passage make perfect sense without the Jesus passage.

It's almost as if the passage does not fit....

I repeat: I'd like to see the entire passage, then.

Being a bit pedantic, aren't you?

I said the 'same kind of context'. Not identical.

Josephus mentions Hercules as a god/man that is worshiped by the people he is writing about, who believed he existed.

The difference is Josephus mentioned Jesus as a man that was crucified by someone that can be historically verified. That is putting this Jesus character directly WITHIN history...historical context. The same cannot be said for Hercules.

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HM, did you pull the persecution card after using Pliny as a reliable source in your "case for christ"?

Yup, but not for the persecution card...but for another non-Christian source that mentions Christ...for the persecution card, Tacitus.

I'm afraid that won't work........if Pliny is reliable then the tales of christian martyrdom are not - and that rules out Tacitus (as well as Suetonius) as a reliable source for a factual narrative of early christianity. It also puts the coals to any claims about christianity's vast spread. I'm afraid that you're going to have to make a choice between these competing claims if you wish to maintain the fantasy of having historical support for the articles of your faith.

A lot of rambling going on in there. Not sure how you drew the conclusion that those accounts have competing views.

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Interesting that you bring up context. Maj, do you consider the 'life and resurrection' of JC as a sad calamity? Because Josephus apparently did.

I mention one tiny paragraph at which he mentions Jesus, and you bring up damn near his entire life's work?

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You've missed the main point. You said you would prove that Jesus existed and then provided non-contempary sources mostly about Christians and not directly about Jesus. The one direct reference without reliance on the Christian cult has been tampered with. That is in no way proof.

However, the lack of complementary sources doesn't prove that there wasn't a Jewish man named Jesus who preached and was crucified.

Case unproven

The same sources that I used is the same sources that the vast majority of historians use...which is why they all draw the conclusion that Jesus was a historical figure.

You don't link make-believe figures in with historical figures, because historical figures can be verified and you run the risk of having your make-belief story exposed as fraudulent. None of the sources that mentions those historically verified names are questioning whether or not the events ever happened...they all speak as if it is true..when you read Tacitus' account, he isn't speaking as if there is a shred of doubt or question as to whether or not Jesus was crucified by Pilate during the reign of Tiberius...he simply states what occurred, and moved on. There is no theological assertions in any of the accounts...no supernatural or magic stuff...they are merely stating what happened.

And what I find amazing is, these are all natural claims. Just stating that a man existed and had a following. That's it. You people can't even believe the simple shit. The natural shit, so of course things like the Resurrection will be difficult to believe...

Just like when Jesus said to Nicodemus, "I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?" (John 3:12)

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The one question that should spring to mind is why should these interpolations and tampered evidence even need to exist at all, if there was even a possibility of the genuine article?

Probably because whatever Christian interpolated it didn't think it had enough "umph"

I mean, if Jesus was who he said he was, then it was the right interpolation, theoretically...however, since that wasn't the intent of the author, it wasn't the right thing to do....so it did more harm than good.

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In all honesty, he says this is only part 1. Meant to establish Jesus' historical existence first.

They he's going to bring out the Big Guns and prove the resurrection.

What's curious is that the Biblical 'God' and 'Jesus' character need a dishonest, willfully ignorant agent like H_M to represent them, when they should be more than up for the job themselves, or at the very least, pick better advocates than H_M.

Reading, comprehension, people. He quoted the title of the thread and left out the whole "Part 1" thing....as far as better advocates is concerned...God does have better advocates out there....William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, Michael Licona, Peter J. Williams, Ben Witherington, Craig Evans.

I will gladly take a back seat to those great apologists for God. I might not be one of them, but again, I am far from a novice

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Still haven't demonstrated how a creature can come back to 'life' after being clinically dead.

Oh yes, sorry, part 2 etc. Yes because part 1 is going a long way to evidencing your claims :|

[His_Majesty]

I can give him that much - essentially, he's trying to do what many people don't even bother to do, which is demonstrate that there's a 'there' there first. Unfortuantely, given that this is an astonishingly tough row to hoe (especially the way he's been going about it)

Historically establishing whether or not Jesus existed in the first place IS the way to go about it.

I don't see there ever being a part two.

Awww, ye of little faith?

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Not if your boy jesus was a second century invention, it isn't.

Stupidity. If he is being written about in the first century, how could he be a second century invention??

Since we have no evidence of his sorry ass from the first century it looks more and more like he's just a later brain fart.

Ahhh yes yes. Keep talking like that. 2pac said "Revenge is like the sweetest joy next to getting pussy".

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And yet.... it's still just a belief.

Everything is based on belief...the question is, what beliefs are true, and what beliefs are false?

Don't you find that odd?

No.

If there was such a thing as a god turned human... shouldn't that "human", at least, live way past a normal human lifespan?

What is a human life span to a God that has lived for eternity?

Shouldn't it be able to turn itself into more humans?... in more places than the ones that were already worshiping Yahweh? Like... China, where written records would have been far more reliable.
Shouldn't it have been able to keep Mohamed from gaining all the traction he did when he kick-started islam?

It's almost like the whole thing is man-made and based off pre-existing beliefs, cults, superstitions and fears!!
Don't you find that odd?

Shouldn't the concept of life from non-life be so apparently false that the question should never be "Does God exist", but "Which God exist"?

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I will cut to the chase. Christians go to sleep at night with the belief that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, and was risen from the dead.

Why do you think I therefore consider xtians to be total fucking assholes?

If not giving a damn why you consider Christians to be assholes was synonymous with record sales....my not giving a damn why you consider Christians to be assholes would reach Michael Jackson'sThriller sales.

Holy CRAP that is a lot of sales!!!

[Cyberman]

I mention one tiny paragraph at which he mentions Jesus, and you bring up damn near his entire life's work? 

No, I provided the paragraphs immediately preceding and following the one tiny paragraph you want to pretend is all the man wrote. It's called context, cully.

A while back I tried a similar exercise. I gave the whole of that chapter minus the TF, then invited people to work out purely from the flow of the text - no preconceptions - where the TF passage ought to fit. I don't recall anyone taking up that gauntlet.

[Cyberman]

Awww, ye of little faith?

So much for the whole "it takes more faith to be an atheist" bit, really.

[Minimalist]

Not if your boy jesus was a second century invention, it isn't.

Stupidity. If he is being written about in the first century, how could he be a second century invention??


Because we have no record of him being writen about in the first century, asshole. That's your basic problem.

Since we have no evidence of his sorry ass from the first century it looks more and more like he's just a later brain fart.

Ahhh yes yes. Keep talking like that. 2pac said "Revenge is like the sweetest joy next to getting pussy".

He's dead. Shot by some other untalented shit.

Why do you think I therefore consider xtians to be total fucking assholes?

If not giving a damn why you consider Christians to be assholes was synonymous with record sales....my not giving a damn why you consider Christians to be assholes would reach Michael Jackson'sThriller sales.

Holy CRAP that is a lot of sales!!!

Pointless. It still remains a ludicrous tale ripped straight from ancient mythology. It isn't even original. However, you keep on believing in garbage. It's obviously all you can handle and the rest of the world will get on just fine without you

[Jenny A]

You've missed the main point. You said you would prove that Jesus existed and then provided non-contempary sources mostly about Christians and not directly about Jesus. The one direct reference without reliance on the Christian cult has been tampered with. That is in no way proof.

However, the lack of complementary sources doesn't prove that there wasn't a Jewish man named Jesus who preached and was crucified.

Case unproven

The same sources that I used is the same sources that the vast majority of historians use...which is why they all draw the conclusion that Jesus was a historical figure.

You don't link make-believe figures in with historical figures, because historical figures can be verified and you run the risk of having your make-belief story exposed as fraudulent. None of the sources that mentions those historically verified names are questioning whether or not the events ever happened...they all speak as if it is true..when you read Tacitus' account, he isn't speaking as if there is a shred of doubt or question as to whether or not Jesus was crucified by Pilate during the reign of Tiberius...he simply states what occurred, and moved on. There is no theological assertions in any of the accounts...no supernatural or magic stuff...they are merely stating what happened.

And what I find amazing is, these are all natural claims. Just stating that a man existed and had a following. That's it. You people can't even believe the simple shit. The natural shit, so of course things like the Resurrection will be difficult to believe...

Of course they are the sources most historians use, because they are often the only available sources. That does not mean historians take everything they say as the unqualified truth.

Josephus, for example is almost the only source available for the Jewish revolts in the 1st Century. He was an eyewitness to much of the what he says in Jewish Wars. However, he was a Jewish general who became a traitor and afterward a Roman proponent and Jewish apologist (an uneasy position if there ever was one). Historians keep this in mind when assessing the veracity of Josephus. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...ephus.html Quite naturally he obviously alters his own part in events. And his descriptions of his own involvement differ in Life and Jewish Wars. http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/bloomRevolt.htm

He also patterns his writing on those of Thucydides and Polybius and exaggerates an invents great speeches and dialogue in much the same way that they did. http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/bloomRevolt.htm Archeology does and does not bare him out.

Notice that none of the above has anything to do with Jesus. It has to do with the puzzle of determining what happened a couple thousand years ago when when we have only limited biased sources. Consequently, there are many historical controversies over events in the 1st and 2nd centuries.

The book you are quoting is Jewish Antiquities. It is a history of the Jewish people. In it Josephus attempts to provide a picture of the Hebrews that will make the Greeks and Romans find them worthy of study. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews

Josephus also writes that Abraham taught science to the Egyptians, who in turn taught the Greeks, and that Moses set up a senatorial priestly aristocracy, which like Rome resisted monarchy. Thus, in an attempt to make the Jewish history more palatable to his Greco-Roman audience, the great figures of the biblical stories are presented as ideal philosopher-leaders.

emphasis mine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews

That plus the obvious Christian later interpolations in the Jesus text in Josephus, and it shouldn't surprise you that there is much controversy about it.

Your other references are entirely based upon people making admittedly second and third hand accounts. That is to say they are reporting what Christians believe, not what they know from other sources.

Up until recently there has been little or no controversy about whether Jesus existed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus But, a number of modern scholars are taking a second look at the evidence and concluding that Jesus the man may be a myth. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/did-j...-think-so/http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

I repeat, since apparently you didn't get it the first time, that I tend to think there was an actual man preaching in Galilee called Jesus. But this issue is open to legitimate debate.

Just like when Jesus said to Nicodemus, "I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?" (John 3:12)

And why should Nicodemus trust?