Eternal punishment is pointless.

[dyresand]

Let us consider a situation:
- God creates sentient beings 'in the image of himself' for some reason,
- he filters some of them out according to some criteria,
- he places those who hasn't passed the selection in Hell.

In Hell the 'unfit' do nothing other than being tortured for eternity. Leaving moral aspects aside, this is just a pointless waste of energy. Why would he do so rather than just alter them to meet his requirements? Do we have to consider that the 'unfit' go to Hell for those in Heaven to see them being tortured?

In fact in light of Omnipotence even finite punishment by a divine being doesn't make sense. Punishment makes sense for humans who sometimes know no better means of enforcing social rules but not for someone who can casually alter human character.

Very true it is contradictory for an all loving god to send people to hell.
That raises a question does god only specifically love people in the case of Christianity god is not all loving only loving specific people of a specific mind set.

the only beings in heaven god the dog from lassie and the only moral person in the world.

[Godscreated]

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He killed the animal first and foremost as a sacrifice for their sin, then used the skin to cloth them. God cursed the creation because of the sin Adam and Eve committed. Sin is the reason for the curse and the curse is why the creation is corrupt. Sin started it off. He had a right to be ticked off, sin had entered His perfect creation because man misused the gift of free will.

GC

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I have never understood why plants and animals were cursed because two humans did something that annoyed bible god. The entire story makes no sense unless your god is like the serial killer, Jigsaw in the movie series, Saw

When sin was brought in the creation, it corrupted the entire creation. What makes you think you have the right to judge your creator?

Supposedly, he put a magic, forbidden tree in a garden with two humans who were so innocent that they didn't really understand right from wrong. Then he let a being who apparently hated humans roam their world so they could be tempted. To believe the story actually happened and isn't just a metaphor means that bible god should be considered evil

They understood right from wrong, where in the account does it say they didn't, you're misrepresenting the account, shame on you, if you can't supply facts the butt out. Just because they were tempted doesn't mean they had to give in. The only evil I see is those who bring in unfounded statements to the account.

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Now you're own the right track. Scripture shows us this is true.

GC

So you believe that your god will put a huge number of people in a place of eternal torture and still don't see your concept of god as evil?

No, those who go to hell choose to go by their rejection of Christ, they decide and God gives them their choice. Being that they choose to go it's not torture but, it will be bad.

GC

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I gave the facts from scripture

Here, let me fix that for you:
I gave the my opinion based on my interpretation of scripture

While you may not like it, that's far closer to the truth than claiming to get any facts from that source.

That's a comment directed at someone else, why are you answering for him, do you not think he is capable.

If you're going to argue scripture you need to do it from scripture and giving specifics.

GC

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He killed the animal first and foremost as a sacrifice for their sin, then used the skin to cloth them. God cursed the creation because of the sin Adam and Eve committed. Sin is the reason for the curse and the curse is why the creation is corrupt. Sin started it off. He had a right to be ticked off, sin had entered His perfect creation because man misused the gift of free will.

GC

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Does not free will imply freedom to choose? I choose not to go to heaven or hell.

The choice is one or the other, you do not get to change God's plans.

GC

[Chad32]

What makes you think we don't have the right to judge our creator? We're free thinking beings, and part of the point of choosing something is making judgments on whether or not we want to do it. How are we supposed to know he's worthy if we don't judge his actions? The fact that he created the world has little bearing on the morality of slavery and genocide.

No they didn't understand. They had no knowledge of good and evil. Like a toddler, they may have understood the word No, but they didn't understand why. If they did, they would already have knowledge of good and evil, and the point of not eating the fruit would be moot. Part of the problem of the story is that it cuts straight from Yahweh saying not to do something, straight to Eve walking near the tree and the snake talking to her. We don't know how much time had passed, or what else Yahweh may have said to try to explain things.

He just said don't do this, or you will die. Ok, what is death to someone who has never experienced it? Did eve ever see an animal die, and Yahweh had to explain that it wasn't going to wake up and play with her anymore? This story was written by people who already understood what death was, and that being naked was wrong, so he didn't feel the need to explain how Eve was meant to understand what death was, and why being naked was wrong.

[Whateverist]

I have never understood why plants and animals were cursed because two humans did something that annoyed bible god. The entire story makes no sense unless your god is like the serial killer, Jigsaw in the movie series, Saw

When sin was brought in the creation, it corrupted the entire creation. What makes you think you have the right to judge your creator?

That raises some questions in my mind.

#1 Are you sure leaving the garden wasn't part of God's plan?

#2 If so, why do you think God was incapable of making it work out the way he wished, and, does that make you wonder what other intentions God has been unable to actualize?

#3 If not (i.e., if you agree that leaving the garden was God's plan all along), what does sin have to do with it?

#4 For that matter, if man's nature is sinful and God is man's creator, who is really responsible for sin?

#5 If we don't have the right, whose responsibility is it to inform us? Yours? If God doesn't like it, He can let me know directly. Better yet, He can kiss my ass.

[Nope]

[

quote='Nope' pid='802234' dateline='1416686896']

I have never understood why plants and animals were cursed because two humans did something that annoyed bible god. The entire story makes no sense unless your god is like the serial killer, Jigsaw in the movie series, Saw

When sin was brought in the creation, it corrupted the entire creation. What makes you think you have the right to judge your creator?

I can't judge a nonexistent being; however, I can and will judge the believes that the religion's followers hold. There was no reason to punish the plants and animals because of something that two humans supposedly did.

When my eldest son did something wrong, I did not punish the dog or cat. That would have been animal abusive.

Supposedly, he put a magic, forbidden tree in a garden with two humans who were so innocent that they didn't really understand right from wrong. Then he let a being who apparently hated humans roam their world so they could be tempted. To believe the story actually happened and isn't just a metaphor means that bible god should be considered evil

They understood right from wrong, where in the account does it say they didn't, you're misrepresenting the account, shame on you, if you can't supply facts the butt out. Just because they were tempted doesn't mean they had to give in. The only evil I see is those who bring in unfounded statements to the account.

From the bible

"The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

The mythical Adam and Eve would have been like very young children. When my children were very little, I did not put temptation within their reach. That would have been silly and if something happened, it would have been my fault because I was the adult.

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Chad32 Wrote:
Sin is not responsible for corrupting creation. How exactly does disobedience to god cause thorns to grow, and make childbirth painfu

Maybe I am wrong, but I thought that childbirth was painful because of changes in the female pelvic structure that allows us to stand upright. If that is true, then for the biblical creation story to be literal, wouldn't Eve have had to walk on all fours before she ate the fruit?

[Godscreated]

When sin was brought in the creation, it corrupted the entire creation. What makes you think you have the right to judge your creator?

That raises some questions in my mind.

#1 Are you sure leaving the garden wasn't part of God's plan?

The plan was the perfect creation, for the creation to be perfect free will had to be a part of it. Lucifer started the fall and corruption by the abuse of his free will, Adam and Eve abused their free will and chose to disobey God completing the corruption of the perfect plan.

#2 If so, why do you think God was incapable of making it work out the way he wished, and, does that make you wonder what other intentions God has been unable to actualize?

God gave free will to make His creation perfect, without it the creation would be no more than a static model with God moving man around like simple chess pieces. Is that what you would want, being a pawn, shuffled around with no rights.

#3 If not (i.e., if you agree that leaving the garden was God's plan all along), what does sin have to do with it?

It wasn't part of the original plan, it couldn't have been, that would mean God desired sin to come into the world. Just why would God bring trouble upon Himself and why would He bring something in existence that He could be no part of. Scriptures state that God would not be in the presence of sin.

#4 For that matter, if man's nature is sinful and God is man's creator, who is really responsible for sin?

Man's nature wasn't original sinful, that only happened after man's disobedience. Man is responsible for his sinful nature. I wish you all would either remember what has been shown to you in the past or go study scripture, you can't argue nor judge that which you have no idea of.

#5 If we don't have the right, whose responsibility is it to inform us? Yours? If God doesn't like it, He can let me know directly. Better yet, He can kiss my ass.

God chose to work through man, it's man's responsibility to inform and man's responsibility to listen to those God's working through. Why just why did you have to end your questioning with such a response, was it to irritate me?

GC

[Smaug]

Why do fundamentalists hate God so much, I wonder? What did he supposedly do to them to deserve such hatred? Why would they keep portraying him as an incompetent, vindictive, petty tyrant that can't handle even the easiest divine tasks? The answer is quite trivial. They don't need God for anything other than to justify their own will, their insane conservatism and insecurity. They don't need God to serve as a moral ideal, they need him to be an ultimate Big Brother to threaten unbelievers and infidels with. They need him as an excuse for their every deed. They want God to be their puppet and to add to it force him to provide them with eternal bliss. And consciously or not they're too scared to become atheists, agnostics or even liberal believers and loose their group identity.

[Mystic]

Why do fundamentalists hate God so much, I wonder? What did he supposedly do to them to deserve such hatred? Why would they keep portraying him as an incompetent, vindictive, petty tyrant that can't handle even the easiest divine tasks? The answer is quite trivial. They don't need God for anything other than to justify their own will, their insane conservatism and insecurity. They don't need God to serve as a moral ideal, they need him to be an ultimate Big Brother to threaten unbelievers and infidels with. They need him as an excuse for their every deed. They want God to be their puppet and to add to it force him to provide them with eternal bliss. And consciously or not they're too scared to become atheists, agnostics or even liberal believers and loose their group identity.

It has nothing to do with that. People believe in the faith they grow up with and some people convert to it for other reasons then you state. The bad qualities of god in each of these religions goes either unnoticed or is seen as part of God's wrath qualities which are seen worthy and high themselves or just accepted on faith. But it has nothing to do with the reasons you state.

[Chad32]

Being a pawn, shuffled around with no rights, sounds exactly how Yahweh wants us to be. We are condemned for things we have no control over, and no choice in what happens to us when we die, besides either worshiping a guy that can't be proven to exist, or be cast out. It seems more like Yahweh gets to do whatever he pleases, including committing atrocities that are as bad or worse than anything people have done, but he gets a pass because he's all powerful. When things are going good, we're expected to praise Yahweh. When shit hits the fan, we just chalk it up to Yahweh being mysterious.

Why don't you tell me what inalienable rights we have?

[Cyberman]

The plan was the perfect creation, for the creation to be perfect free will had to be a part of it. Lucifer started the fall and corruption by the abuse of his free will, Adam and Eve abused their free will and chose to disobey God completing the corruption of the perfect plan.

How could they have abused their free will in this scenario? Here we have a "perfect creation" that had to include free will, yet could be "corrupted" by two humans choosing the 'wrong' thing. That's where the word "free" comes in, and this god had to have known that. Giving someone a free choice and then punishing them for choosing the wrong option is included in the job description of a tyrant. Double if that person has no knowledge of the ramifications of that choice.